302 Belts and Pulleys - How Many Do I Need?

[gregski]

I appologize but I'm more confused than a blind lesbian at a fish market! (Oh relax it's a joke for crying out loud) As you know us Mustang II guys get no love when it comes to documentation or parts, and us Mustang II 302 guys get even less, (one chapter to be exact in the Haynes manual, I know I own it). I think it is time to run my water pump before I weld that engine shut starting it without it, so... I have a D5ZE-6312-A2A three groove crank pulley, a D5ZE-8509-AB water pump pulley, and a D7TE-AA 34 water pump.

PROBLEMS:

1. The water pump pulley does not align with any of the grooves on the crank pulley below it. It sits too close to the water pump and should be about 1/4 inch out towards the radiator more. Can I shimmy it with some spacer or do I have the wrong pulley. [History] It came with the engine but was just wedged on the shaft and not bolted on, possibly a transplant.

2. I thought the water pump uses it's own belt, and the alternator uses it's own, (as shown on the black and white photo on my Haynes papyrus scroll). I pulled the alternator off of a 351 '76 Cougar at the Pick N Pull and took the belt with it, because it had a separate belt for it. Went to AutoZone and asked for a water pump belt and they only had what seems like alt and A/P (I know what A/C is and what P/S is, but what the heck is A/P?)

QUESTIONS:

1. How many belts do I need to run the water pump and the alternator?

2. Which bottom grove should I be using for which accessory?

3. From my three groove crank pulley and it's part number can you deduce if this beast originally came with air conditioning, or power steering?

Gentlemen [/Ladies], thank you for reading, and you have no idea how much I appreciate your help so far, I am so close to having this thing done I am tickled pink.

 

[Dano78]

I appologize but I'm more confused than a blind lesbian at a fish market!

Nice.. I like it! Think I'm gonna use that one for awhile.

PROBLEMS:

1. The water pump pulley does not align with any of the grooves on the crank pulley below it. It sits too close to the water pump and should be about 1/4 inch out towards the radiator more. Can I shimmy it with some spacer or do I have the wrong pulley. [History] It came with the engine but was just wedged on the shaft and not bolted on, possibly a transplant.

You have the right lower pulley and waterpump pulley. The waterpump codes out for a '77 Truck but should be just the same. Look at the part numbers on your harmonic balancer. If the part number doesn't have 'ZE' in the 3rd & 4th positions, then your balancer is causing the mis-alignment. If you are going to use the MII pulleys, you MUST use a MII harmonic balancer. The spacing difference from a mainstream 302 is about 3/8" if I remember right.
--OR-- yes, you can run a spacer under the waterpump pulley if you want. I have mis-matched '69/'70 pullies on my II's engine and it requires a 1/4" spacer to properly align. Nuttin wrong with that.

2. I thought the water pump uses it's own belt, and the alternator uses it's own, (as shown on the black and white photo on my Haynes papyrus scroll). I pulled the alternator off of a 351 '76 Cougar at the Pick N Pull and took the belt with it, because it had a separate belt for it. Went to AutoZone and asked for a water pump belt and they only had what seems like alt and A/P (I know what A/C is and what P/S is, but what the heck is A/P?)

No. The waterpump shared the belt with the power steering pump and the crank. A/P refers to the 'Air Pump' on cars eqqipped with the smog emissions system. You car had one when new but was surely removed later on. Some other A/P systems used a much smaller belt of it's own driven just off the crank only. You should be able to get a belt without the A/P. If not, just size one up. The alternator belt you got may be too long for your 302 as the 351W deck height is taller causing the accessories to be mounted a little differently. It may work, but don't be surprised if it doesn't.

QUESTIONS:

1. How many belts do I need to run the water pump and the alternator?

You will need two. That is.. unless you are one of the lucky ones to find a pulley set off of a '69 - '72 302/351W powered car that was ordered without power steering. Those pulleys are quite different and are designed to allow the waterpump, alt. and crank to all use one belt. My '72 Comet is that way.

2. Which bottom grove should I be using for which accessory?

Outside groove- Used for A/C
Center groove- Alternator (and A/P on some apps.)
Inside Groove- Waterpump/Powersteering

3. From my three groove crank pulley and it's part number can you deduce if this beast originally came with air conditioning, or power steering?

It came with both, powersteering and A/C. All V8 Mustang IIs came with power steering from the factory.

 

[78CobraII]

[Edit: after reading Dano's reply above, I've come to the conclusion that my belt memories are heavily 2.3L engine related, so disregard the following! ]


It's been about 10 years since I've have a running MII/302, but here's my best remembrance:

-Most if not all MII's (and Ford's of the period) used a pair of belts to run the alternator, PS pump, and water pump. Maybe the genesis of the serpentine belt idea?

-The AC compressor was usually run from a separate thicker belt. Of course AC was an option that a fair number of MII's did not have.

-I'm not 100% on how the air injection (smog) pump was run, but I have a vague recollection of a second belt off of the AC compressor. At least on my 2.3's it was mounted underneath.

So what do you really need for your test-stand engine?

You don't have a PS pump (or at least one that is not providing presure) and you don't have an alternator with a large electrical load, so you can drop one of the dual belts. After you get your pulleys lined up, just wrap a tape measure or piece of rope around the pulleys and measure your length. The parts guy will need that length and the width of the pulley groove.

It would of course be easier to use the proper pulleys, but if you keep your belt tension down (loose) and you don't turn too many RPM, you can get away with a lot of shimming that you wouldn't do on the street.

I hope that sharing a U-Tube video is planned for the first start-up!

Good luck!

 

[Dano78]

Actually alot of Fords in the 70s ran dual alternator belts. Most prodominantly the FE powered Trucks and Commercial Cabs. I forgot about the Inline 4s, and I do vaugely remember seeing a few with dual belts. Weird. So in those years it's easy to think that there would be 2 alternator belts... just not in the V8 IIs.

 

[gregski]

VICTORY and lessons learned...

VICTORY and lessons learned...

Apperantly water pumps built to 03/14/1976 had a 5 3/8" hub height and those built from 03/15/1976 had a 5 3/4" hub height. Monkey tails, how is a man with no car therefore no VIN to know that Ford engineers?, but I digress. So it really don't matter if it's a truck pump i.e. part number prefix D7TE (T for Truck) or a Mustang pump i.e. D7ZE (Z for Zustang) what matters is the "hub height" I would call it hub length cause it don't stick up, but again, tomato - tomatoe.

So why did I replace the water pump rather than just shimming it? Well four reasons:

1. A new "correct" water pump costs only $21.99

2. Ordering a shimmy from Summitt, paying for it, plus the shipping, plus the wait time, didn't make sense.

3. I was also secretly hoping that magically the new water pump would hold the alternator bracket a bit in a different position to where I could actually mount my alternator, i.e. my next task.

4. See one above...

Cheat Sheet. I bet you wonder what's the secret to being a Self Proclaimed Master Mechanic, well that's simple, it's a Cheat Sheet. With our minds filled with NFL, NASCAR stats, and images of the latest Sports Illustrated swim suit models (remember those?) it's kinda hard to remember where the long bolts go when putting back anything, so we turn to the "Cheat Sheet". That's right even the worst of us write things down, cause you're never too green to be a beginner. So in this case I traced the new water pump on a piece of paper and used that as a template for bolt placement. (Yes it would have been way easier to trace the darn gasket that came with the new water pump, but why split hairs.) And every time I removed a bold off of the old water pump I measured it and wrote the size down below the appropriate hole on the... [wait for it] Cheat Sheet! To keep things even more simpler I placed the bolts off the left side of the engine on the left side, and the right side on the ... right side. Did you know this darn thing uses 8 bolts of 5 different sizes?

NOTE TO SELF: Hold off on shooting a Christmas card to Ford this year!

Let there be a Water Pump page: Small Block Ford 302 V8

 

[gregski]

I believe Dano78 already explained the order of the belts in a reply above but I would still like to get a visual so I'm looking for a similar diagram for a 302 Mustang II. Currently my water pump aligns with the small inside crank pulley and my alternator aligns with the middle crank pulley. I have a belt on the crank and the alternator, but don't know how I can run a belt on the crank and water pump since there is no way to adjust the tension. I do not have an Air Pump, AC, nor Power Steering. I am using 70-73 alternator bracketry hence the misalignment as I believe normally the AC, Water Pump run off the inside crank pulley. I am going for option three below:

Credit for the diagram below goes to 1970 Mustang 302 / 351 Drive Belt Arrangement

 

[Dano78]

Right now your setup is actually design #2. You would need a powersteering pump and that is where you'd get your ability to tighten the crank-waterpump belt.

If you're shootin for #3 then you're gonna be in for a long haul to find the correct pulleys. Although it was an option, very few cars left the factory w/o powersteering after '70. SO, that being said you'd either have to conjur up some kind of pulley setup (get real creative) or start hunting down Mavericks, Comets, F100 pickups or vans that came from the factory as 302s or 351Ws without p/s. There are a couple aftermarket pulley manufacturers that DO make pulley sets to your specs. (i.e. what accessories you want to run and by which belt) But that can get spendy pretty quick.