As a professional head porter all I have to say is that if you go for the bigger heads or not they need to have work done to them. Heads out of the box have a tremendous amount of power left on the table and with a little work will run even better. As for if you are going to add a supercharger it would be very wise to port the heads and intake. Forced induction engines need volume. All boost is, is the measurement of restriction in the intake runner.
how much horsepower?
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BlackVert
15 Year Member
indecision can only bring you agony and drain your bank account. then depression sets in and you want to scrap the car or let it sit for a couple years. i'm just trying to inject some hard learned experience into the situation.
trust me on this ... i have flip-flopped so much about what to do with my car i have looked like a damn fish on the line on the pier. and i still don't have it just right, but i have no desire to start over again.
so please .... step back, take some time, and think about what your goals really are for this car.
the first and most important decision you need to make is: is this a car you are going to drive every day and use all the time? if so, then drivability, reliability and fuel economy should probably be high on the list.
then ... boost (supercharger or turbo) or not? make that decision and stick with it. many of the rest of the decisions you make depend on that.
if you don't boost it, then upgrading the heads, intake, and exhaust would make sense. do they do emissions testing in your area? if so, keep this in mind ... a big cam like that can make it hard to pass. also, are drivability and gas mileage goals you have for this car? again, a big cam like that and the kind of power you are looking for will make those goals harder to achieve.
i am about being able to drive my car anytime, anywhere, everywhere. so reliability, drivability and fuel economy are important. right now, i'm good on everything but the fuel economy part. i blame the size of my engine and the overlap in my cam for that.
if i were doing it all again, i'd keep the cubes down ... i'd still have the windsor motor, but more like 351 instead of 410 cubes ... compression at about 9.5:1 or so, have a very blower friendly cam, and turbo it. then the drivability and gas mileage would be great when i kept my right foot off the pedal, i could use low octane fuel, and it would be scary fast when i went full throttle.
sorry, just some rambling thoughts from an old guy who has been around the block a few times.
trust me on this ... i have flip-flopped so much about what to do with my car i have looked like a damn fish on the line on the pier. and i still don't have it just right, but i have no desire to start over again.
so please .... step back, take some time, and think about what your goals really are for this car.
the first and most important decision you need to make is: is this a car you are going to drive every day and use all the time? if so, then drivability, reliability and fuel economy should probably be high on the list.
then ... boost (supercharger or turbo) or not? make that decision and stick with it. many of the rest of the decisions you make depend on that.
if you don't boost it, then upgrading the heads, intake, and exhaust would make sense. do they do emissions testing in your area? if so, keep this in mind ... a big cam like that can make it hard to pass. also, are drivability and gas mileage goals you have for this car? again, a big cam like that and the kind of power you are looking for will make those goals harder to achieve.
i am about being able to drive my car anytime, anywhere, everywhere. so reliability, drivability and fuel economy are important. right now, i'm good on everything but the fuel economy part. i blame the size of my engine and the overlap in my cam for that.
if i were doing it all again, i'd keep the cubes down ... i'd still have the windsor motor, but more like 351 instead of 410 cubes ... compression at about 9.5:1 or so, have a very blower friendly cam, and turbo it. then the drivability and gas mileage would be great when i kept my right foot off the pedal, i could use low octane fuel, and it would be scary fast when i went full throttle.
sorry, just some rambling thoughts from an old guy who has been around the block a few times.
+1. Out of the box heads are built by machines to be sold at a competitive price. Good customization makes an enormous difference.
Kurt
Where did you get the $600 quote from? Where I work would problably charge $1500. Thats with disassebly, valve job, portwork, clean up mill, setting the valve heights, and assembly. I could do the heads for around $900 depending on how much work is needed. Then for the intake it depends on what it looks like. Anywhere from $100-200. If you stayed na I dont see a problem with the 30 lb injectors they may be one the small side but Im not a pro tuner either.
i have a a 2000 mustang gt that i drive every day because i love mustangs so much. so... i dont need to drive it every day. and yes. i agree switchin swappin and changing my mind has made me want to sell the car. i have dreams of boosting the car but its simply not practical. i already have a lotta time and money tied up in this car. this has all been very informative and fun. you guys have shot me down a lot, but i really needed brought back down to earth. i have been to the point where i wanna sell the car it makes me so mad. anyways.... fuel mileage is not a huge factor for me. i made my bed i gotta take it before i really do shoot the car. porting the ehads and intake and keeping this cam then having it tuned seems to be the best bet for me. i may not be able to beat a z06 corvette but im only 15 grand in it now. i cant see another 6 or 7 grand bein dumped into it. if i ever really need a faster car i suppose i can sell this one and play with the modular that i have.. but that discussion is for another forum=) between the two.. i love my 94 the best. hands down. its older, the paint is uglier, but even if i had more horses out of the modular they just cant turn heads like a good old fashioned push road stroker engine. i love it. the quote came from a small town machine shop.. i now the guy that runs it.. he is throwin me one hell of a deal. i just wanted to verify how good of a "bro hookup" he gave me. again. thanks for all the advice guys. next year after the head job i will post another thread with a dyno sheet and let you guys know how it turned out. thanks again and i hope i make you guys proud=)
I personally feel like most of the advice in this thread, while good-natured, is terrible. There's some good stuff, but these guys are trying to get you to spend thousands on new heads, a blower, etc... when you've already got some great parts, twisted wedge heads are awesome and they're already on the car. Is the combo ideal? No. Are your goals achievable on a budget? Absolutely. In fact, you're very close, already. Don't get wrapped around what other people want to build and focus on how to get the best bang for your buck.
Your intake and heads are a decent match. Toss your cam, because it doesn't match, and go custom (~$350 + gaskets and any other parts that need freshening). Talk to any custom cam guy already recommended and they will help you lay out anything else that needs to be done with the valve train.
10.5:1 is a high compression for a blower or turbo. You can slap one on there and run very limited boost, but it's not going to be very satisfying knowing that you're hindered by the compression you're running. Nitrous, however is a great choice because it's compression friendly. The cooling effect provided will prevent detonation. The great part is that you won't be hindered by the combination you already have. A change of jets will allow you to add more nitrous if you decide to get aggressive. The combination of parts you've got should put you around 310-350 at the wheels depending on how aggressive a cam you choose. Everybody thinks they want a race car, but are usually happier with a streetable car with a little less power. A 100-150 shot of the sauce is going to put you right at your goal, and it's a very conservative amount of spray when properly tuned. A good nitrous system with the safety switches (window and hobbes), blow-out valves etc... should run you no more than $1500. Or you can find the stuff used for as little as $500. Between the cam and the nitrous kit, you're going to spend no more than $2,000. A tune should cost $500 or less. Now, you've got a car that'll make enough power to run with the Z06 vettes. The question at this point will be if your suspension and drivetrain are up to task. If so, you're all set.
Why go with new heads, intake, blah blah blah when a little forced induction can already max the limits of the block out? If you really feel like doing all that work on porting the heads, wait until it's time to pull the motor apart for a rebuild. $600 is about the going rate for a good port job.
I really feel your friend, other than picking the wrong cam, didn't do a bad job in his part selection. Trick flow stuff is right up there with the best aftermarket brands out there.
Chris
Your intake and heads are a decent match. Toss your cam, because it doesn't match, and go custom (~$350 + gaskets and any other parts that need freshening). Talk to any custom cam guy already recommended and they will help you lay out anything else that needs to be done with the valve train.
10.5:1 is a high compression for a blower or turbo. You can slap one on there and run very limited boost, but it's not going to be very satisfying knowing that you're hindered by the compression you're running. Nitrous, however is a great choice because it's compression friendly. The cooling effect provided will prevent detonation. The great part is that you won't be hindered by the combination you already have. A change of jets will allow you to add more nitrous if you decide to get aggressive. The combination of parts you've got should put you around 310-350 at the wheels depending on how aggressive a cam you choose. Everybody thinks they want a race car, but are usually happier with a streetable car with a little less power. A 100-150 shot of the sauce is going to put you right at your goal, and it's a very conservative amount of spray when properly tuned. A good nitrous system with the safety switches (window and hobbes), blow-out valves etc... should run you no more than $1500. Or you can find the stuff used for as little as $500. Between the cam and the nitrous kit, you're going to spend no more than $2,000. A tune should cost $500 or less. Now, you've got a car that'll make enough power to run with the Z06 vettes. The question at this point will be if your suspension and drivetrain are up to task. If so, you're all set.
Why go with new heads, intake, blah blah blah when a little forced induction can already max the limits of the block out? If you really feel like doing all that work on porting the heads, wait until it's time to pull the motor apart for a rebuild. $600 is about the going rate for a good port job.
I really feel your friend, other than picking the wrong cam, didn't do a bad job in his part selection. Trick flow stuff is right up there with the best aftermarket brands out there.
Chris
stprorolla49
Active Member
Great info FastDriver! I was going to mention something along the same lines hinting towards the fact that, other than the cam, you have some great parts. Honestly, if it were me I'd change the cam, get a really good tune, then focus on getting the rest of the car set up. I'd be willing to bet with some sticky tires on 15" rims, a good set of upper and lower control arms, and some good shocks, struts, and springs, you could almost hit your 11.50 goal.
Paul (KillerCanary), is running 11.50 in a heavy '95 vert with this combo:
-Dart sportsman 331ci 9:1 compression
-AFR 185 competition heads
-FTI cam from my old stock shortblock combo
-probe shaft mount rockers
-TMOSS ported Holley Systemax intake
-75mm fox TB
-30lb injectors
-190lph pump
-ASP pulleys
-MAC 1-3/4" long tubes
-Dr. Gas 3" into 2.5" X pipe
-2.5" cat back with dynomax welded ultraflow mufflers
-AEM ECU tuned by me
-TKO trans
-4.10 gears
Now, while he has some different parts than you, I'm thinking you probably wont be too far off with a different cam since you also have higher compression.
This is just the first example that came to mind, and while he does have a Dart block which probably contributes to helping him make some serious n/a power, his combo probably isn't that far off from yours.
Like some others have said, I would take a step back and think about what you really want to do with the car. Doing the suspension up right and getting some sticky tires will only help you put the power to the ground, no matter what changes you decide to make in the future to the powerplant.
Good luck with the decisions, you've got a great group of fellas in here that are very knowledgeable!
Paul (KillerCanary), is running 11.50 in a heavy '95 vert with this combo:
-Dart sportsman 331ci 9:1 compression
-AFR 185 competition heads
-FTI cam from my old stock shortblock combo
-probe shaft mount rockers
-TMOSS ported Holley Systemax intake
-75mm fox TB
-30lb injectors
-190lph pump
-ASP pulleys
-MAC 1-3/4" long tubes
-Dr. Gas 3" into 2.5" X pipe
-2.5" cat back with dynomax welded ultraflow mufflers
-AEM ECU tuned by me
-TKO trans
-4.10 gears
Now, while he has some different parts than you, I'm thinking you probably wont be too far off with a different cam since you also have higher compression.
This is just the first example that came to mind, and while he does have a Dart block which probably contributes to helping him make some serious n/a power, his combo probably isn't that far off from yours.
Like some others have said, I would take a step back and think about what you really want to do with the car. Doing the suspension up right and getting some sticky tires will only help you put the power to the ground, no matter what changes you decide to make in the future to the powerplant.
Good luck with the decisions, you've got a great group of fellas in here that are very knowledgeable!
i already have the suspension done. i have the shocks control arms subframe connectors 3.73 gears in place. i also have 275/45 17 mickey thompsons on 17X10.5 rims. only thing i lack as far as suspension is the lift bars, and they will be put in next spring. as i have said before and i will say again.. you guys have been a huge huge help and i cant begin to tell you how much i appreciate it. i came in here thinking i knew a lot, but i have been humbled. i also learned a lot. i have no issue with having the head job done to match that cam... im interested to see that out. i have been steered away from a supercharger which is a good thing. my wife woulda killed me if i told her that i had to dump another 5 or six grand into it next year. the goal is 11.5 times. or close to it. another 2500 is reasonable to me. as i said i will let you know how it goes. then i can slap some paint on it and post some pics. cuz its embarassing right now.. hahaha. you guys have been super. thank you to everyone for the advice.
I guess I'm one of the peeps in this thread who have been giving
terrible advice
I saw the original concern being ...............
I want 500 hp at the motor
I did not ever see how good can I get with what I got
Yes ... The heads and intake are more suited to each other than
the cam
never the less .................
A different cam with those parts won't yield 500
Grady
terrible advice
I saw the original concern being ...............
I want 500 hp at the motor
I did not ever see how good can I get with what I got
Yes ... The heads and intake are more suited to each other than
the cam
never the less .................
A different cam with those parts won't yield 500
Grady
grady your advice is not terrible. i dont think anyone gave terrible advice.your advice was good for what i asked for. 500 horses. as i said in the last thread i am willing to port and polish the heads and keep the cam. i think its neat. and no one really runs that cam.. i dont know if it will make 500 horsepower or not... but it should be close i think. dont get me wroing... i appreviate everyone's advice,
If you want to get the most power for the buck spent then that would
be a whole different story as I see it
Sure ... I'd then go along with what has already been said by others
Stay with the NA method
First thing to think about is the end result of different levels of power
Lets stick with RWHP since most relate to that cause of dyno pulls
500 motor is around 425 at the wheels
I will filter this post around what I know to be fact with NA combos and
drivability.
When I talk of drivability I speak in terms of your modified Stang driving
just like a little stocker with the exception of cam lope
NO
stalling ... NO bucking ... NO unstable idle
NONE of that stuff you see peeps talk about with a combo that is more
serious than just ... simple bolt on stuff
We have had MANY peeps on this very forum make 1 hp per ci and have
such of an outcome when talking drivability issues
Of Course ... we are talking about a custom tune here
So with your combo you are looking at 331 at the wheels
This is based upon ALL parts being well suited to each other
I can't say anything about that cam but from what others have said .........
you might not have the best cam ... but ... generally speaking ...........
I'd say a ballpark level of power would be 331 to 350 with very good
drivability
You might be able to go up to 375 but I would guess that is about the
limit for really good drivability
Now ... if you just gotta have that additional 50 to 75 hp
You can go more radical with NA methods but it ain't gonna behave
like a little stocker
More power can be had with PA and you can avoid a lot of the issues
with dirvability but of course ... your cost will go up
There is the juice if you wanna deal with the bottle and all
Blower or Turbo is always there with more cost than the juice
The thing about going PA with your current setup is
Going over 450 puts you knocking on the door of block splitting power
Just more stuff for you to think about
Grady
be a whole different story as I see it
Sure ... I'd then go along with what has already been said by others
Stay with the NA method
First thing to think about is the end result of different levels of power
Lets stick with RWHP since most relate to that cause of dyno pulls
500 motor is around 425 at the wheels
I will filter this post around what I know to be fact with NA combos and
drivability.
When I talk of drivability I speak in terms of your modified Stang driving
just like a little stocker with the exception of cam lope
NO
stalling ... NO bucking ... NO unstable idleNONE of that stuff you see peeps talk about with a combo that is more
serious than just ... simple bolt on stuff
We have had MANY peeps on this very forum make 1 hp per ci and have
such of an outcome when talking drivability issues
Of Course ... we are talking about a custom tune here
So with your combo you are looking at 331 at the wheels
This is based upon ALL parts being well suited to each other
I can't say anything about that cam but from what others have said .........
you might not have the best cam ... but ... generally speaking ...........
I'd say a ballpark level of power would be 331 to 350 with very good
drivability
You might be able to go up to 375 but I would guess that is about the
limit for really good drivability
Now ... if you just gotta have that additional 50 to 75 hp
You can go more radical with NA methods but it ain't gonna behave
like a little stocker
More power can be had with PA and you can avoid a lot of the issues
with dirvability but of course ... your cost will go up
There is the juice if you wanna deal with the bottle and all
Blower or Turbo is always there with more cost than the juice
The thing about going PA with your current setup is
Going over 450 puts you knocking on the door of block splitting power
Just more stuff for you to think about
Grady
Where ever you work is a rip. I just had my heads completely redone for like $500. I had the valve job redone which was $200 including dissasembly and reassembly. $65 to tidy up the port work, and a couple of header bolt holes heli coiled. The rest was for parts including a full set of valve springs.
Kurt
how much power do i really stand to gain by porting and polishing heads to keep up with the cam? i really dont think i wanna go with the bottle... i mostly street drive and would rarely make it to the track. putting nos would probably be a waste. i also decided that i want to minimize the risk of breaking my block...if i blow that engine again my wife is gonna pull the plug... i guarantee it. lol. then ill be on here selling a 94 gt with a broken block... hahaha. so i think turbo and supercharger are out opf the question.
BlackVert
15 Year Member
call ed curtis or jay allen and tell him what you have and what you want, and ask him to grind you the best cam for it.
and if you really want to do heads, then they can recommend the best ones too
and if you really want to do heads, then they can recommend the best ones too
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