Edelbrock manifold going on TT mustang *PICS*

[hotmustang331]

Wow its been a while since I have been here lol. I think my last thread was my dyno record of 640RWHP on the 2V stock shortblock...well the stock 95K shortblock is about to get pushed even further

Switching from stock PI intake W/ ported TF plenum and 75MM BBK throttlebody to my new setup that just came in today.

I still cant get over the size difference here lol

Also just switched over to E85, so now im out of fuel at just 9PSI and will need to revamp the fuel setup (twin GT pumps W/ Ford 80# injectors).

Switching over to sumped tank and full return system that can handle the E85

 

[d98gt]

Thats a huge difference in size and should flow well. The car is going to make some great numbers on the e85

 

[SteedaGT9150]

Noice

 

[sneaky98gt]

Very nice! Check out tank_567's turbo build thread. He put one of those manifolds on and gained quite a bit.

 

[superstang01]

nice! this motor seems to never die haha

do you still have the cobra?

 

[tank_567]

I have a question about your car and 640rwhp. Now I had a stock block turbo mustang myself and was making 526rwhp @14.5lbs of boost w/ that intake. my brother had heads cams, intake, 11.1 compression and 10lbs of boost, made 530. Then my brother built a customers car(TF heads, custom turbo cams, eddy intake, built bottom end 9.5:1) made 626rwhp @ 19lbs of boost and last car I will talk about is a built Mach 1(20k in the engine) w/ twin 57s, 9lbs of boost made 600rwhp.(800+ on 93 and 15lbs+) Now I saw your videos and saw that you made 14.5lbs of boost, my question is why are you making more than 100rwhp over my stock engine and more hp over a built 2v, and built 4v, and a high compression 2v

 

[hotmustang331]

nice! this motor seems to never die haha

do you still have the cobra?

Thanks Everyone!
Well I am a little nervous about pushing the motor and jacking my turbos haha but yes its been through a TON of abuse

Yep cobra is just wasting away in my garage lol...I rarely drive it but its nice to look at I want to try and attain 600RWHP out of the eaton...im at 518 now with all my portwork (which was pretty extensive) so im going to have to go off the wall but it should be fun in any case

 

[N8Dogg98]

f**king sick!

 

[hotmustang331]

I have a question about your car and 640rwhp. Now I had a stock block turbo mustang myself and was making 526rwhp @14.5lbs of boost w/ that intake. my brother had heads cams, intake, 11.1 compression and 10lbs of boost, made 530. Then my brother built a customers car(TF heads, custom turbo cams, eddy intake, built bottom end 9.5:1) made 626rwhp @ 19lbs of boost and last car I will talk about is a built Mach 1(20k in the engine) w/ twin 57s, 9lbs of boost made 600rwhp.(800+ on 93 and 15lbs+) Now I saw your videos and saw that you made 14.5lbs of boost, my question is why are you making more than 100rwhp over my stock engine and more hp over a built 2v, and built 4v, and a high compression 2v

Sure I can answer your question....and first off let me say that I did look through your build and want to say congrats and nice job

With that said, (this will be long) I did see several "issues" costing you a lot of power but by far your problem is efficiency of your turbo and where its being efficient. And without seeing these other setups, im going to say turbo system design and turbo selection are the main issues.

I can go into a long tangent about why your dropping boost pressure now and why your car is running out of steam and why your wastegate cannot hold closed...but the short answer for where most of your "power" is lurking is BACK PRESSURE.
Any boost your seeing on that gauge is a measure of restriction...take a supercharged pullied cobra @ 15PSI. Now through LTs on it with full exhaust and you will drop a good 3PSI. Makes roughly the same power but is more efficient...then if you add that 3PSI back...um yea.
This is a great example because the blower is fixed volume per revolution...this shows exactly whats happening without a wastegate making up the difference. Back pressure generally causes intake pressure to rise.


Its the same type thing with a turbo car...your boost pressure in the intake is matched to a pressure ratio that's larger and also building in your exhaust. For you @ 14.5PSI, your exhaust pipes most likely seeing well over double, to almost triple that pressure! Your cylinders are having to push exhaust against a super high head pressure plus, some of that burnt exhaust is retained in the cylinder and then factor in any valve overlap and you get the point. As back pressure rises, so does indicated "boost" pressure to an extent...plus there is less room for fresh oxygen to fill in, with old exhaust still lurking behind from the previous event.

My car is designed to have as little back pressure as possible (closer to a 1-1 pressure ratio). I run two .96 A/R housing...and i'm betting yours is running through one of the same size or maybe less. One huge reason why my car makes the power that it does. Exhaust turbine flow has a HUGE impact on power. But that's just half of the issue.
Ever look at a compressor map? Where does your engine fall on that map @ 8PSI? How bout 14.5? How bout 20? (they work off of pressure ratio of course but its easy to convert) As your pushing more boost through your 62, its heading more and more toward its maximum flow...sure at around 8 PSI its doing great but you start pushing it and efficiency starts dropping. ...which means less and less power gained per PSI of boost. Look at twin 57s...they will peak in the 800RWHP area usually....get close to that an 1psi of boost may net you 2-5RWHP.
My twin 61s are good for around 1200RWHP....so around 640 they are just getting started. I was gaing in excess of 30RWHP for every pound of boost I added. And it was gaining more HP per pound until I stopped @ 14.5PSI (640).

All in all it comes down to the combo....you can have a well flowing compressor (your case with a 700RWHP capable turbo) but a low flowing turbine side. Or you can have the opposite. Neither are going to perform to their potential in terms of peak power and both will display similar effects of lots more torque that power. The former being a larger separation depending on how exaggerated the difference between compressor and turbine.

In the end you build the system to what your needs are...and your setup is a GREAT street setup. Quick spool with tons of torque...nothing wrong with your setup and it does the job it was designed to do...make a fun street machine.

Hope this helps and was what you were looking for

 

[Winters98GT]

Sick build. Waiting to see it at the Mile! Come on out and have a beer with us!

 

[lightblade]

Where back presusre becomes an issue for overall power is after the turbo(s), not between the engine and the turbo, once the cars at target boost and the wastegate is fully open theres almost no back pressure here sense the pressurized exhuast coming out of the engine is just going right out the wastegate. This is the number one reason why boost drops off a little bit in the upper rpms since there is alot less back pressure now so it reads less but you still make power, this is also why dumping the wastegate to amtosphere is more efficient than routing it back to the downpipe and you can pick up a little power this way.

My setup made 604rwhp at 14psi with a.96 ar housing. I went to a .68 housing and still made 605rwhp at 14psi and increased spool around 200-300 rpms. And my entire power/tq curve was higher through out the rpm range. This was with no changes to the wg spring or boost controller. At relatively low boost levels ie 10-20psi turbine flow is more importnat for efficiencey and spool. Its when you start running 20-30+psi where a turbine with not enough flow can hurt peak power. On a v8 at the 15psi theres really no power loss. You can get away with the larger exhuast housings since you have 2 turbos so spool isnt hurt as much but those larger housings arent gaining you any peak power over say a .81 or .68 housing.

Boost at the manifold is just a measure of restriction and is almost completely centerd around how well the engine can take in and push out air. So yes the manifold, heads cams, engine dispalcement and exhuast does come into play. But the biggest factor here is the engine. I think you are a little confused and seems like your trying to say on someone else setup it would read more boost to explain the power, but this its just not the case. It would more rely on engine mods like heads/cams work, compression, stroke etc.

Your never going to have a 1:1 ratio unless you have a 6" diameter downpipe dumped to atmosphere right after the turbo. Besides 1:2 is ideal bp, your turbine does need some back pressure.
Hows your boost curve look? It will tell you alot about how the setup is working if you have dyno graphs to post up, also what are the specs on the motor?


Edit i see on your vid i says stage 1 cams so thats the reason you only see 14ish boost and make more power. But your setup has way too big of piping and no back pressure and spools so ridiculous slow. You dont even hit full boost till jsut before you let out. A twin turbo setup should make full boost way down low in the rpm range. I have an eboost2 as well love it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek9yTTU4aK4&feature=channel_video_title

Here is a vid of my single setup spooling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AoA3A-O5KA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oGAXM_U-E

 

[lightblade]

Found your graphs. You have almost no power band/spool its like you dont get full spooled till 5000 rpms no boost curve though. Looks alot like a centi supercharger graph. Very weak for a twin trubo setup to say the least.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/808244-twin-turbo-mustang-dyno-results-yep-its-me-d.html

 

[CatmanJJ]

Geebuz you have some nice toys.

 

[hotmustang331]

Lightblade,
Your theory on turbine flow is not correct...it sounds that simple as just having a wastegate vent excess pressure but it's not accurate. I'm at work with super busy schedule but I'll try and explain this weekend. Dyno loads my car down to only 2000#...it spools much better on the street with load...plus I simply need to spin it higher (built motor needed!) 1st gear is the only point I would be at a disadvantage...it retains at other shiftpoints.
Your car is a 3V correct? That's a whole different beast due to the extremely large bais in intake flow over exhaust flow.

I'll also cover backpressure post turbo. And 1:2 pressure ratio is typical street car...ALL turno drag race setups run Right at 1-1 ratios.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Lot's a good information in here guys. Keep it coming please!

 

[lightblade]

So your saying your car is setup for the track? Is it stick or auto? Ever run it down the 1320?
I bet it cant even make full boost in first gear.
You dont have enough motor to spool that setup which is sad since its twin turbos.
That looks like a setup you would see 400+ cube motors or that run 200 shots of no2 down low to get the turbo's spooled.

The lack of back pressure after the turbo's as your piping is so big and free flowing, that combined with .96 ar is why your setup spools so so slow. At your boost/power level a turbine housing swap will not effect peak power at all. I would swap both turbine housings to .68 ar. You will make the same peak power but also increase power band and spool and the car will be alot faster.

 

[lightblade]

Some info of turbine housing
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech102

Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.

You have twin 61s correct? A 61mm with .68 will easily flow to 500-600hp before you seen any loss in performance from any back pressure. With two turbo's were talkin 800-900hp with that housing size.

 

[Winters98GT]

That dyno is interesting, hotmustang. Have you tried another dyno?

 

[midnightdriver]

Where back presusre becomes an issue for overall power is after the turbo(s), not between the engine and the turbo, once the cars at target boost and the wastegate is fully open theres almost no back pressure here sense the pressurized exhuast coming out of the engine is just going right out the wastegate. This is the number one reason why boost drops off a little bit in the upper rpms since there is alot less back pressure now so it reads less but you still make power, this is also why dumping the wastegate to amtosphere is more efficient than routing it back to the downpipe and you can pick up a little power this way.

My setup made 604rwhp at 14psi with a.96 ar housing. I went to a .68 housing and still made 605rwhp at 14psi and increased spool around 200-300 rpms. And my entire power/tq curve was higher through out the rpm range. This was with no changes to the wg spring or boost controller. At relatively low boost levels ie 10-20psi turbine flow is more importnat for efficiencey and spool. Its when you start running 20-30+psi where a turbine with not enough flow can hurt peak power. On a v8 at the 15psi theres really no power loss. You can get away with the larger exhuast housings since you have 2 turbos so spool isnt hurt as much but those larger housings arent gaining you any peak power over say a .81 or .68 housing.

Boost at the manifold is just a measure of restriction and is almost completely centerd around how well the engine can take in and push out air. So yes the manifold, heads cams, engine dispalcement and exhuast does come into play. But the biggest factor here is the engine. I think you are a little confused and seems like your trying to say on someone else setup it would read more boost to explain the power, but this its just not the case. It would more rely on engine mods like heads/cams work, compression, stroke etc.

Your never going to have a 1:1 ratio unless you have a 6" diameter downpipe dumped to atmosphere right after the turbo. Besides 1:2 is ideal bp, your turbine does need some back pressure.
Hows your boost curve look? It will tell you alot about how the setup is working if you have dyno graphs to post up, also what are the specs on the motor?


Edit i see on your vid i says stage 1 cams so thats the reason you only see 14ish boost and make more power. But your setup has way too big of piping and no back pressure and spools so ridiculous slow. You dont even hit full boost till jsut before you let out. A twin turbo setup should make full boost way down low in the rpm range. I have an eboost2 as well love it!
YouTube - ‪Twin turbo mustang 14.5psi‬‏

Here is a vid of my single setup spooling.
YouTube - ‪07 Mustang 67mm billet turbo spool‬‏
YouTube - ‪07 Mustang GT Precision Billet 67mm turbo‬‏

First of all he has a STOCK 2V BLOCK, and it probably has lasted this long because he doesn't make a ton of power down low where it puts the most strain on the engine.

Second, your video shows nothing about spooling vs rpm, all you see are the boost gauge and thats it.

Third you have a 3V which is crazy different in so many ways such as head design, intake design, exhaust design, fuel system etc.

Fourth and final, don't bash his setup, if he likes it then ok. You come off all hurt because his "slow spooling twins" made more power on a stock engine then your 'built' engine.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Edit.