I to have found that same wire diagram I have treid to cross reference it to my computer but no luck and yes it has a pin on it the green wire that is. I tried looking for an 87 wire diagram but no luck? And as far as the dizzy goes by the time I got the post that the stock dizzy in my wifes 89 5.0 with the cast gear wil work it was dark and raining lol. I will swap it today to see if it works. Thanks!!!!!! for all the help trust me you have no idea how fustrating this is on my end.
87 5.0 wont start
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99FiveOh
10 Year Member
Well, since you told us about the extra wire I'm leaning on that as the problem. When you say green wire, is there a stripe on that wire or is it just green only?
solid green only I have checked and I have the following open pins in my harness
41,44,51,53,55,23,24,28,34,35,39,2,3,5,8,11,18
but in that wiring diagram for the 88-93 I do not find a port on any of these numbers that is solid green. I did find on port 3 a green/white for vehicle speed sensor I have pin 3 with no wire in it at all but out of all of the above mentioned open spots that is the only thing I see at all? The wire is a solid green no other color on it and its not the light lime green either? So after finding this Green wire I am stumped? I mean the damn thing has the pin on the end of the wire just like it was plugged in before lol???? So if any one has any other ideas I am open to them. Thanks for the continued help I do appreciate it a ton. I still think I need to find the 60 pin wire harnes diagram for an 87 and maybe that will show what this solid green wire goes to?
41,44,51,53,55,23,24,28,34,35,39,2,3,5,8,11,18
but in that wiring diagram for the 88-93 I do not find a port on any of these numbers that is solid green. I did find on port 3 a green/white for vehicle speed sensor I have pin 3 with no wire in it at all but out of all of the above mentioned open spots that is the only thing I see at all? The wire is a solid green no other color on it and its not the light lime green either? So after finding this Green wire I am stumped? I mean the damn thing has the pin on the end of the wire just like it was plugged in before lol???? So if any one has any other ideas I am open to them. Thanks for the continued help I do appreciate it a ton. I still think I need to find the 60 pin wire harnes diagram for an 87 and maybe that will show what this solid green wire goes to?
99FiveOh
10 Year Member
If you're not getting spark then it probably has something to do with the ignition system.
What you should do then is ask these fine folks if someone with an 87 could pop the cover from their computer area and see which pin that wire goes to. That may be the simplest approach other than finding someone with access to Ford service CD's.
What you should do then is ask these fine folks if someone with an 87 could pop the cover from their computer area and see which pin that wire goes to. That may be the simplest approach other than finding someone with access to Ford service CD's.
Mustang Mass Air Conversion «
You may need to copy the above link. It shows the mass air coversion pins. Pin 3 is for one od the signal wires that should be ran when converting to mass air, however, I swapped my tranny that doesn't even have a vss (vehicle speed sensor) so I didn't run the wires but it runs & starts fine. Sometimes as I slow down coming to a stop sign it likes to stall which is the problem associated to not running those wires. I don't believe that's your problem though...mines an 86 gt 5.0 but the mass air instructions are the same...are you getting 12 volts at your coil harness with the key on?
You may need to copy the above link. It shows the mass air coversion pins. Pin 3 is for one od the signal wires that should be ran when converting to mass air, however, I swapped my tranny that doesn't even have a vss (vehicle speed sensor) so I didn't run the wires but it runs & starts fine. Sometimes as I slow down coming to a stop sign it likes to stall which is the problem associated to not running those wires. I don't believe that's your problem though...mines an 86 gt 5.0 but the mass air instructions are the same...are you getting 12 volts at your coil harness with the key on?
ok new update on my end. today a friend droped by with an inline spark plug test light set. I plugged it in and I have power at my coil good spark, then I tried it at my dizzy I have no power on any plug on my dizzy at all. Tried it on my plugs no power. So what does this mean? Maybe my green wire thats is loose or another issue? That light thing is kick ass works great!!!!!
How the TFI ignition works in 86-93 model Mustangs:
Tools needed: DVM, noid light, safety pin.
Theory of operation:
The TFI ignition in 86-93 Mustangs has 4 main components: the ignition switch, the coil, the TFI module and the PIP sensor inside the distributor.
The ignition switch gets power from the two yellow wires that are supplied power by a fuse link located in the wiring harness that connects to the starter solenoid.
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
The coil is mounted on the driver’s side strut tower on most EFI Mustangs. It gets power from a red/green wire and a brown/pink wire from the ignition switch. That wire from the ignition switch feeds a 20 gauge blue fuse link that connects to the red/green wire. The fuse link protects the wiring and the ignition switch, since the fuse link for the two yellow power supply wires has a much higher current rating. Without the smaller fuse link protecting the smaller wiring used in the ignition circuit, a short there would cause the red/green wire to overheat and burn up.
The TFI module is mounted on the side of the distributor and supplies the ground for the coil. Every automotive power supply circuit uses the ground as the return path to carry power back to the negative side of the battery. The TFI switches the tan/yellow wire coming from the coil to ground. It gets power from the red/green wire when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The red/lt blue wire supplies a signal to turn on more power (dwell time) when the engine is cranking. The trigger signal comes from the PIP sensor when cranking and the computer when the engine is running. The SPOUT jumper plug enables computer controlled spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, spark advance is locked at the setting determined by the mechanical position of the distributor.
The PIP sensor is in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. It is a Hall effect magnetic sensor that senses a change in the magnetic field when one of the slots in the shutter wheel uncovers the sensor. Then it supplies a pulse that triggers the TFI module to provide a ground to the ignition coil. A bad PIP will often set code 14 in the computer and cause hot start problems. Replacing the PIP sensor requires removal of the distributor and pressing the gear off the distributor shaft to expose the sensor. For most people, a remanufactured distributor ($55-$75) is the solution, since they may not have access to a press.
Troubleshooting the ignition system – no spark or weak spark. All the tests are done with the ignition switch in the Run position unless specified otherwise. A safety pin may be used to probe the wiring connectors from the back side.
1.) Check for 12 volts at the yellow wires on the ignition switch. No 12 volts and the fuse link near the starter solenoid has open circuited.
2.) Check for 12 volts on the red/green and brown/pink wires coming out of the ignition switch. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
3.) Check for 12 volts at the ignition coil. No 12 volts and the blue 20 gauge fuse link has open circuited.
4.) Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you have wiring problems.
5.) Remove the small red/blue wire from the starter solenoid (looks like it is stuck on a screw). This is a safety measure to keep the engine from turning while you are making measurements. Have a helper turn the ignition switch to Start and look for 12 volts on the red/lt blue wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you will have starting problems, but push starting the car will work OK. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch. Be sure to reconnect the red/blue wire to the starter when you finish.
6.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the PIP pulse. The computer uses the PIP signal to trigger the fuel injectors. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the PIP is working. No flash from the noid light and the PIP is suspect. To confirm the PIP is being the source of the non flashing noid light, look for 12 volts on the red injector wiring. Good 12 volts and no flashing noid light means the PIP has failed.
7.) Remove the SPOUT plug from the harness and try to start the engine. If it starts, replace the PIP. This is a common no start condition when the engine is hot.
8.) The TFI module is a go/no go item when you have a no spark/weak spark condition on a cold engine. It either works or it doesn’t.
The TFI failure mode on a running car is usually a high speed miss on a warm engine. Many auto parts stores will test your TFI module for free. Bring along a hair dryer to get it hot while testing it and run several test cycles, since it often gets weak when it heats up.
The coil is somewhat more difficult to pinpoint as a problem. A good coil will make a nice fat blue spark 3/8”-1/2” long. The problem is that one person’s perception of a fat blue spark looks like may not be accurate enough to spot a weak coil. The coil is cheap enough ($13-$16) that having a known good working spare might be a good idea.
diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2Birds
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Wiring & Engine Info Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif
TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
Tools needed: DVM, noid light, safety pin.
Theory of operation:
The TFI ignition in 86-93 Mustangs has 4 main components: the ignition switch, the coil, the TFI module and the PIP sensor inside the distributor.
The ignition switch gets power from the two yellow wires that are supplied power by a fuse link located in the wiring harness that connects to the starter solenoid.
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
The coil is mounted on the driver’s side strut tower on most EFI Mustangs. It gets power from a red/green wire and a brown/pink wire from the ignition switch. That wire from the ignition switch feeds a 20 gauge blue fuse link that connects to the red/green wire. The fuse link protects the wiring and the ignition switch, since the fuse link for the two yellow power supply wires has a much higher current rating. Without the smaller fuse link protecting the smaller wiring used in the ignition circuit, a short there would cause the red/green wire to overheat and burn up.
The TFI module is mounted on the side of the distributor and supplies the ground for the coil. Every automotive power supply circuit uses the ground as the return path to carry power back to the negative side of the battery. The TFI switches the tan/yellow wire coming from the coil to ground. It gets power from the red/green wire when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The red/lt blue wire supplies a signal to turn on more power (dwell time) when the engine is cranking. The trigger signal comes from the PIP sensor when cranking and the computer when the engine is running. The SPOUT jumper plug enables computer controlled spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, spark advance is locked at the setting determined by the mechanical position of the distributor.
The PIP sensor is in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. It is a Hall effect magnetic sensor that senses a change in the magnetic field when one of the slots in the shutter wheel uncovers the sensor. Then it supplies a pulse that triggers the TFI module to provide a ground to the ignition coil. A bad PIP will often set code 14 in the computer and cause hot start problems. Replacing the PIP sensor requires removal of the distributor and pressing the gear off the distributor shaft to expose the sensor. For most people, a remanufactured distributor ($55-$75) is the solution, since they may not have access to a press.
Troubleshooting the ignition system – no spark or weak spark. All the tests are done with the ignition switch in the Run position unless specified otherwise. A safety pin may be used to probe the wiring connectors from the back side.
1.) Check for 12 volts at the yellow wires on the ignition switch. No 12 volts and the fuse link near the starter solenoid has open circuited.
2.) Check for 12 volts on the red/green and brown/pink wires coming out of the ignition switch. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
3.) Check for 12 volts at the ignition coil. No 12 volts and the blue 20 gauge fuse link has open circuited.
4.) Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you have wiring problems.
5.) Remove the small red/blue wire from the starter solenoid (looks like it is stuck on a screw). This is a safety measure to keep the engine from turning while you are making measurements. Have a helper turn the ignition switch to Start and look for 12 volts on the red/lt blue wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you will have starting problems, but push starting the car will work OK. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch. Be sure to reconnect the red/blue wire to the starter when you finish.
6.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the PIP pulse. The computer uses the PIP signal to trigger the fuel injectors. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the PIP is working. No flash from the noid light and the PIP is suspect. To confirm the PIP is being the source of the non flashing noid light, look for 12 volts on the red injector wiring. Good 12 volts and no flashing noid light means the PIP has failed.
7.) Remove the SPOUT plug from the harness and try to start the engine. If it starts, replace the PIP. This is a common no start condition when the engine is hot.
8.) The TFI module is a go/no go item when you have a no spark/weak spark condition on a cold engine. It either works or it doesn’t.
The TFI failure mode on a running car is usually a high speed miss on a warm engine. Many auto parts stores will test your TFI module for free. Bring along a hair dryer to get it hot while testing it and run several test cycles, since it often gets weak when it heats up.
The coil is somewhat more difficult to pinpoint as a problem. A good coil will make a nice fat blue spark 3/8”-1/2” long. The problem is that one person’s perception of a fat blue spark looks like may not be accurate enough to spot a weak coil. The coil is cheap enough ($13-$16) that having a known good working spare might be a good idea.
diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2Birds
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Wiring & Engine Info Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif
TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
ok thanks I will read up on how do to the mas conversion as well. And to the other guy who gave me the stuff on the no spark im going to work on that list tonight with a tester and see what I come up with. Another thing I thought was unique was I unplugged the computer and I get spark to the dizzy and plugs and it acctualy wants to kinda start but with the computer plugged in I only get spark at the coil and it just wants to turn over ???? any thoughts on this? Thanks for all the help
I get the impression that you skim or quckly read what is posted and don't stop to think about what you are reading. Go back and very slowly read the Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs checklist.
Item 1 B says:
" PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking."
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
99FiveOh
10 Year Member
None of this is of any consequence until A: he identifies the mystery wire and B: puts it back where it belongs. No other amount of looking at this or testing that will help if that wire is of any significance.
99FiveOh
10 Year Member
I didn't see where it was confirmed that his green wire was in fact pin #3.
As for if the PIP is bad or not, USE THE DIZZY FROM YOUR WIFE'S CAR!!!!!!!!!
ok I am not 100% sure of the GREEN wire in the #3 spot but I did see in the wire diagram that #3 has a green/white wire in it for the vss speed sensor. my car is an 87 so its an original speed density car but it has been converted to a MAF car. I checked my harness with my wifes harness on her 89 GT and the only spot I have an open wire that she dont is #3 which hers is green as well and hers is a MAF so I am guessing that this was work of someone before me????? If I am wrong please let me know by all means. The only reason I have not swapped dizzys was the idea of having to get 2 cars re stabbed and the timming set!!!! Oh and my wife is not happy that I am using her car to try to find out whats wrong with mine LOL.
Yes, pin 3 was a wire that should have been ran when the previous owner did the mass air conversion. Running that wire is considered an "optional" step and "shouldn't" affect the driveability but if its not ran you could experience stalling at stop signs or "return to idle" stalling. I was intimidated setting the timing too and restabbing the dizzy until I read the some really good posts about how to get it spot on everytime quickly. Its not too bad. I can find the link in the morning and paste it in for you. Its basically, taking out the number one spark plug, turn the crankshaft until you feel a gush of air coming out with your finger in the hole then stabbing the distributor so the rotor is pointing at number one plug wire on the dizzy. That will get you real close but ill post the link tomorrow cuz its way more descriptive and elequently written.
Putting the distributor back in and setting the timing.
Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole,
crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.
The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.
Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.
Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.
10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.
Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.
ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.
The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.
To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.
The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see that the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.
At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.
Remove the SPOUT connector (do a search if you want a picture of the SPOUT connector) It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT
Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.
Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.
The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole,
crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.
The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.
Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.
Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.
10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.
Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.
ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.
The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.
To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.
The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see that the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.
At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.
Remove the SPOUT connector (do a search if you want a picture of the SPOUT connector) It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT
Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.
Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.
The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
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