can I swap in a c&l mass air to replace my bad Pro-m meter & use the same chip?

[393strokervert]

I ordered a SCT chip from JMS last week because my Tweecer went bad on me (either went bad or it ditched the tunes I loaded because it was running fine then stalled out & wouldn't start back up, I turned it off & it started & ran, turned it back on & it would shut off) I gave them all my motor upgrade info & got the chip... it ran decent for a day or so but now it appears my Pro-M mass air is bad.... it makes no difference whatsoever whether the mass air is plugged in or not, it runs the exactly the same. that being said, my SCT chip is tuned for a Pro-M 80mm meter with 30# injectors, can I install a C&L calibrated for 30#'s & it work or do I have to get another Pro-M meter so it will match the chip? Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[2000xp8]

Couple things.
No you can't run a different meter.
A c&l is a piece of crap.
You should not be buying a chip mail order, it's a complete waste of money.

Get your car to run right with no tuning equipment or chip at all.
If you still feel for some reason that you need a program, take the car to an sct tuning shop and have it dyno tuned.

Does a tune do anything really beneficial on a foxbody? No.
But seems to make some of these guys feel warm and fuzzy inside.
If you car doesn't run right before a chip, the chip is just a bandaid, i've seen some of the wildest combos ever run just fine on a stock fox computer. Numbers into the mid 600s at the wheels.

 

[Opposedodie]

So what you are saying is that my A9S computer will see my 36 Lbs injectors and adjust the fuel to match the 9 Lbs of blower boost that I am putting into a 5.0? I am running the QuarterHorse chip and with out it I would blow the block up in minutes ... There is only so much a stock comp will handle without dyno tuning ... I want to see the changes that are made to a stock computer and fine tune it as I run the car .. SCT is a waste of money for the modified 5.0 .....

 

[Noobz347]

I think 2000xp8 was assuming a stock or near stock setup.

When you change injector size, cam, heads, and add boost then yes, Yes, YES... a tune is essential. A9X computers are very limited in what they can accommodate on their own.

Even swapping injectors (and nothing else) without a tune is a no no. Those so called, "calibrated meters" might allow the AFR to get close but the stock EEC doesn't know the difference and will not adjust the pulse width mins/maxes/or duration. All it knows to do (even when you cheat by using a meter that lies to the EEC) is that it's trying to fire what it thinks, is a 19 lb injector into a motor that's taking in a lot less air than what it thinks it's taking in.


To answer your question above: No. You cannot just swap meters over and expect your current tune to run the car correctly. The transfer functions ARE NOT THE SAME between that PMAS and the C&L.

That C&L meter is a piece of crap. On that, I agree with 2000xp 100%. They hit or miss. Some folks have luck running them while the largest percentage have fits getting them to run and the rest use them for ash trays.

My recommendation would be to send your PMAS meter back to Pro-Flo (I think that's what they're called now) and have it repaired.

 

[2000xp8]

So what you are saying is that my A9S computer will see my 36 Lbs injectors and adjust the fuel to match the 9 Lbs of blower boost that I am putting into a 5.0? I am running the QuarterHorse chip and with out it I would blow the block up in minutes ... There is only so much a stock comp will handle without dyno tuning ... I want to see the changes that are made to a stock computer and fine tune it as I run the car .. SCT is a waste of money for the modified 5.0 .....

You can run the stock computer until at least the mid 600's at the wheels. Some claim into the 700's, but that's not something i have seen in person.
I know this for a fact.
Chips and dyno tunes haven't been around that long.
What do you think guys did before they existed? Everyone blew up their car?
Are you under the impression 9lbs of boost is alot?

The right meter and the right injectors and the 5.0 computer can pretty much handle anything the average guy could throw at it.

If you think without a dyno you can "fine tune" anything on the stock computer, you are out of your mind. Most guys make their car worse, not better.
How do i know? A good friend is a 5.0 pioneer and has owned a mustang shop since i was old enough to drive, and i'm 36.

 

[vristang]

Couple things.
No you can't run a different meter.
A c&l is a piece of crap.
You should not be buying a chip mail order, it's a complete waste of money.

I agree on all counts, but I don't know if I would go as far as to call C&L 'crap'... it's just more sensitive to intake tract variations... not the best design out there...

Get your car to run right with no tuning equipment or chip at all.

Yep,
You can't tune a broken setup.
If you have a system failure somewhere, it needs to be fixed first!
Start by pulling codes and correcting any issues that come up.

Does a tune do anything really beneficial on a foxbody? No.
But seems to make some of these guys feel warm and fuzzy inside.
If you car doesn't run right before a chip, the chip is just a bandaid, i've seen some of the wildest combos ever run just fine on a stock fox computer. Numbers into the mid 600s at the wheels.

LOL
How would you know? You ever tuned a fox body? oh, ya... you just know a guy that tried tuning and didn't get anything out of it...

Fox ecu's are pretty adaptive, but to say that a tune is worthless until 600hp is, just plain silly.

Here is a recent thread on eectuning.org
EECTuning.org • View topic - How much more power have you seen with a tune on a stock car
Some of these guys are professional tuners, some are hobbyists... either way, conscensus seems to be that there are gains to be made even on a stock or near stock setup...

tuning a late 90s cobra usually nets 30

a stock fox/sn typically 25

a stock 03-04 cobra 60

stock lightning 40

stock gt500 80

stock 2011 15


now fuel economy depends on the tuner, some folks like myself actually take the time to make it right and lean the piss out of an engine if it likes it, i got no problem letting a car roll at 1.16 lambda if it likes it, lately i've found myself letting adaptives learn when warming up, then forcing open loop above 200ect at cruise only and demanding lean mixes for fuel economy, i gained 11mpg's on my daily driver, from 19 to 31

 

[vristang]

I ordered a SCT chip from JMS last week because my Tweecer went bad on me (either went bad or it ditched the tunes I loaded because it was running fine then stalled out & wouldn't start back up, I turned it off & it started & ran, turned it back on & it would shut off) I gave them all my motor upgrade info & got the chip... it ran decent for a day or so but now it appears my Pro-M mass air is bad.... it makes no difference whatsoever whether the mass air is plugged in or not, it runs the exactly the same. that being said, my SCT chip is tuned for a Pro-M 80mm meter with 30# injectors, can I install a C&L calibrated for 30#'s & it work or do I have to get another Pro-M meter so it will match the chip? Thanks in advance for any info.

tunes have been known to get dropped... did you search on eectuning for possible answers? Could just be a bad connection somewhere...

Unplugging the MAF tells you NOTHING.
You need to start with pulling codes, and working what comes up.

No you can't install the C&L in place of the proM

 

[jrichker]

The resident expert has told you (and I would highly recommend heeding his advice) to dump the codes. So with that in mind, here's how...


Dumping the computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

Revised 26-July-2011. Added need to make sure the clutch is pressed when dumping codes.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Post the codes you get and I will post 86-93 model 5.0 Mustang specific code definitions and fixes. I do not have a complete listing for 94-95 model 5.0 Mustangs at this time.

Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. On a manual transmission car, be sure to press the clutch to the floor.
Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and driveablity problems

Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, and clutch (if present) is pressed to the floor, and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Alternate methods:
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

Or for a nicer scanner see Equus - Digital Ford Code Reader (3145) – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30.
Or for a nicer scanner see http://www.midwayautosupply.com/p-7208-equus-digital-ford-code-reader-3145.aspx– It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30.

 

[393strokervert]

Thanks for the info guys, I've been busy with work & I don't have Internet at my new place yet so hence my not commenting back... I plan on pulling codes this week when I get a chance. The Tweecer def either dumped everything or went bad, I've checked the connections , made sure everything is clean & still a no go...thing is, I no longer have access to the Tweecer software on my computer, I can't get it to run on my laptop & I lost all my info when my harddrive died a few months ago...
the reason I'm pretty sure the pro-m is bad is it makes no difference whether it's hooked up or not at idle or while driving...that just makes no sense... I checed for voltage last week with a dvm & there is voltage to it so Idt there is a wiring issue there... I'll try to pull codes tonight or tomorrow night & I'll post them here.. Thanks again

 

[2000xp8]

The unplugging of the maf with no change, does signify a bad meter usually, although sometimes the problem is deeper.

 

[vristang]

When the ecu experiences a sensor condition that is 'out of range', it goes into an alternate control mode.
If you are already in an alternate control mode, then the ecu is not going to respond the same as if it were simply controlling in closed loop operation...

Unplugging sensors is no way to diagnose a problem.
check codes.

 

[vristang]

It's good you no longer have access to the tweecer software, as it was junk to begin with... BinaryEditor is best software available right now...
This thread *might* give you some ideas on the dropped tune from the tweecer...
EECTuning.org • View topic - QH losing connection while datalogging

good luck,
jason

 

[rdharper02]

It may not apply anymore, butI second the intake tract sensitivity. I've had two C&L vehicles and my two current cars have the Pro-M. The C&Ls did not seem to like the 90 degree bend on the 93s intake tract, but did great on the 97s. The location and shape of the sample tube seems to read false if their is turbulence in the air. If it is relatively straight when entering the C&L, it works just fine. I honestly think too many people repeat the "C&L is crap" line. It utilizes a factory sensor made for the factory computer. Its the manner that it samples the air that can be a problem. No worries. Sounds like the tweecer is your largest problem. Good luck and I hope you get her fixed.

 

[393strokervert]

Still haven't had time to pull codes yet, I'm in South Florida, irene is giving us some nice weather & I'm in the pool industry so it doesn't look like I'll have much time to look at it right now... I'll post them up when I pull them though... Thanks again for the info guys.