Engine problems - break up above 2500 RPM

habiv

Member
Oct 28, 2004
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90 Mustang Problem - YouTube

Please watch the video above.

I guess I should start out with a little history of the car. This is a 1990 GT and I have had the car since about 2000. I bought the car bone stock with about 85,000 miles on it and it now has about 100K. I have had this break up issue since I bought the car, however, it has gone from breaking up slightly once every 6 months, to breaking up severely all of the time. The break up occurs at about 2,500 RPM's and continues up to redline. It breaks up most severely between 3 and 4K RPM's. The car idles and runs wonderfully up til 2500 RPM's. As I mentioned above, the car has done this since I bought it, but has gotten worse with time and modifications. I have gone through and checked several things and have had no luck. I thought it was an ignition problem at first and checked or replaced everything having to do with ignition. The most recent thing I changed was the computer. I swapped in an original ford computer, but the problem still occurs exactly the same. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
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First things first...have you run the engine for codes? If not, this should be your first step before chaning any more parts.

Next, give us more information about the "checked or replaced everything having to do with ignition" list. What did you check and change specifically?

Does the break up only occur in that reve range? Does it occur above that RPM? Are you even able to rev the engine past the break up range, or will it just stumble and sputter? Does the engine do it under load as well, or just free wheeling? :shrug:
 
-I have run codes and nothing comes up.

-I have replaced the plugs, plug wires, coil, and distributor. Other things that I have done are, checked TPS voltage and changed meter. I also checked to see that the voltage does not spike. I also checked fuel pressure.

The problem has become worse as the car has been modified. As far as modifications goes, the car has a K+N filter, bigger mass air, Edlebrock performer upper and lower manifold (Injectors and fuel rails were changed at this point with stock replacements), ford racing headers, BBK H-pipe, flowmaster american thunder exhaust, 3:27 gears.

The break up ONLY occurs in that rev range and idles/runs beautifly up to that point. It used to only break up under hard acceleration, but now does it all of the time. I used to be able to rev the engine out, but it is painful to do :( I was once able to get it to break up by bogging it down in 4th gear, but that does not always happen.
 
The TFI module mounted on the distributor is usually the culprit for a high speed miss on a warm engine. If the problem does not occur when the engine is cold, the TFI module is definitely suspect. You may need a special socket to remove the TFI module, but most auto parts stores will have one for $5-$7.

Be sure to use plenty of the heat sink grease on the new TFI and clean the old grease off the distributor.

View attachment 175969

See Automotive Tools Specialty | Auto Mechanic & Technician Diagnostic, Testing Equipment | Thexton
 
The TFI module mounted on the distributor is usually the culprit for a high speed miss on a warm engine. If the problem does not occur when the engine is cold, the TFI module is definitely suspect. You may need a special socket to remove the TFI module, but most auto parts stores will have one for $5-$7.

Be sure to use plenty of the heat sink grease on the new TFI and clean the old grease off the distributor.

View attachment 175927

See Automotive Tools Specialty | Auto Mechanic & Technician Diagnostic, Testing Equipment | Thexton

Oops, forgot to add that to the list of already replaced. That was actually one of the first things I tried becasue it used to break up the worst when the engine was warmed up...now it just does it all of the time. The video above was taken when the car was completely cold.

I first replaced the TFI module, no luck, then I replaced the internals of the stock distributor, no luch, finally I replaced the entire distributor with a new MSD unit (which came with a TFI module attached) and the problem is still evident :(
 
No code 11 (two flashes when the computer dumps the codes)? The 11 code is computer passed its internal self test.
If you don't get an 11, you have computer or wiring problems.
Please check and repost.
 
No code 11 (two flashes when the computer dumps the codes)? The 11 code is computer passed its internal self test.
If you don't get an 11, you have computer or wiring problems.
Please check and repost.

The most recent thing I did was change the computer and I got the same problem, but maybe there is a wiring issue like you said. I will run the codes again to double check. The two flashes sound familiar. We just had a hurricane here, so it might be a few days before I get to the car :( I will re-post after I have run the codes. Thanks!
 
No code 11 (two flashes when the computer dumps the codes)? The 11 code is computer passed its internal self test.
If you don't get an 11, you have computer or wiring problems.
Please check and repost.

So, I ran all of the tests today.

For the engine off "On Demand" codes, I got a 67 (Park/Neutral circuit fault)

For the engine off "Continuous Memory" codes, I got an 11 (System Checks OK)

For the engine on codes, I got a 44 (AIR system inoperative)

For the cylinder balance test I got a 99 (Pass)

Any thoughts?
 
i would say that its your mass air meter, i see u replaced the injectors.. did u replace with the stock 19 lbs or did u go higher? What model mass air do you have? The sample tube has to match the injectors. One thing you can do is if you remove the meter itself using the tamper torques u can take a alcohol swab (the kind you get in a first aid kit) and VERY VERY CAREFULLY clean the dirt off the sensors. Also i see you checked the tps voltage i dont think this will cause your break-up, but your voltage should be .996. Last thought, make sure the plus is in the pigtail coming off the distributor.
 
u know what.... i just watch the video... i if its not ur mass air, which i doubt... u have 100K on the engine... ever check the timing chain? Looks like something mechanical with the timing... no popping or back firing, especially through the intake?
 
Have you checked all of the wires going to the TFI? Could be a bad connection there, or possibly even a grounding issue. How is the engine grounded? Is the ground for the injector harness connected?
 
i would say that its your mass air meter, i see u replaced the injectors.. did u replace with the stock 19 lbs or did u go higher? What model mass air do you have? The sample tube has to match the injectors. One thing you can do is if you remove the meter itself using the tamper torques u can take a alcohol swab (the kind you get in a first aid kit) and VERY VERY CAREFULLY clean the dirt off the sensors. Also i see you checked the tps voltage i dont think this will cause your break-up, but your voltage should be .996. Last thought, make sure the plus is in the pigtail coming off the distributor.

I have checked the mass air meter and cleaned it. It's definitely not the mass air, as I have been having this issue since the car was completely stock. Also, I have replaced the mass air meter :(

I replaced the injectors with Ford 19lb injectors. Like I said, it has been doing it since the car was completely stock, it has just gotten much worse over the years and with upgrades.

Voltage is very close to that I think...I checked that a while back.
 
u know what.... i just watch the video... i if its not ur mass air, which i doubt... u have 100K on the engine... ever check the timing chain? Looks like something mechanical with the timing... no popping or back firing, especially through the intake?

I have not checked the timing chain yet. That was my next thought as to what it might be. I think I might try that. I agree that it seems like it has to be something having to do with the timing. There is no popping or backfiring.
 
So we were poking around testing things today and we found that the problem might have something to do with the alternator. So, we disconnected the alternator and the problem completely went away. I went and got a new alternator, put it on the car, and the problem came back even worse than before. So, what do you think, a wiring problem somewhere?
 
Alternator troubleshooting for 86-93 5.0 Mustangs:


Never, never disconnect an alternator from the battery with the engine running. The resulting voltage spike can damage the car's electronics including the alternator.

Do all of these tests in sequence. Do not skip around. The results of each test depend on the results of the previous tests for correct interpretation.

Engine off, ignition off, battery fully charged.
1.) Look for 12 volts at the alternator output. No 12 volts and the dark green fuse link between the orange/black wires and the battery side of the starter solenoid has open circuited.
3G alternator: Look for 12 volts at the stud on the back of the alternator where the 4 gauge power feed wire is bolted.
No voltage and the fuse for the 4 gauge power feed wire is open or there are some loose connections.

2.) Look for 12 volts on the yellow/white wire that is the power feed to the regulator. No 12 volts, and the fuse link for the yellow/white wire has open circuited.

Engine off, ignition on, battery fully charged.
1.) Alternator warning light should glow. No glow, bulb has burned out or there is a break in the wiring between the regulator plug and the dash. The warning light supplies an exciter voltage that tells the regulator to turn on. There is a 500 ohm resistor in parallel with the warning light so that if the bulb burns out, the regulator still gets the exciter voltage.
Disconnect the D connector with the 3 wires (yellow/white, white/black and green/red) from the voltage regulator.
Measure the voltage on the Lt green/red wire. It should be 12 volts. No 12 volts and the wire is broken, or the 500 ohm resistor and dash indicator lamp are bad. If the 12 volts is missing, replace the warning lamp. If after replacing the warning lamp, the test fails again, the wiring between the warning lamp and the alternator is faulty. The warning lamp circuit is part of the instrument panel and contains some connectors that may cause problems.

2.) Reconnect the D plug to the alternator
Probe the green/red wire from the rear of the connector and use the battery negative post as a ground. You should see 2.4-2.6 volts. No voltage and the previous tests passed, you have a failed regulator. This is an actual measurement taken from a car with a working electrical system.

Engine on, Ignition on, battery fully charged:
Probe the green/red wire from the rear of the connector and use the battery negative post as a ground. You should see battery voltage minus .25 to 1.0 volt. If the battery measured across the battery is 15.25 volts, you should see 14.50 volts

Familiarize yourself with the following application note from Fluke: See http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/automotive/beatbook.pdf for help for help troubleshooting voltage drops across connections and components. .

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You will need to do some voltage drop testing of several of the wires.

Start looking for these things:
1.) Bad diode(s) in the alternator - one or more diodes have open circuited and are causing the voltage to drop off as load increases. Remove the alternator and bench test it to confirm or deny this as being the problem.

2.) The secondary power ground is between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It is often missing or loose. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges. Do the voltage drop test as shown in the Fluke tech note link. Measure the voltage drop between the alternator frame and the battery negative post. Watch for an increase in drop as the load increases. Use the Fluke voltage drop figures as guidelines for your decisions.

3.) Bad regulator that does not increase field current as load increases. Remove the alternator and bench test it to confirm or deny this as being the problem.

4.) Bad sense wire - open circuit in sense wiring or high resistance. The yellow/white wire is the voltage sense and power for the field. There is a fuse link embedded in the wiring where it connects to the black/orange wiring that can open up and cause problems. Disconnect the battery negative cable from the battery: this will keep you from making sparks when you do the next step. Then disconnect the yellow/white wire at the alternator and the green fuse link at the starter solenoid/starter relay. Measure the resistance between the alternator end of the yellow/white wire and the green fuse link: you should see less than 1 ohm. Reconnect all the wires when you have completed this step.

5.) Bad power feed wiring from the alternator. Use caution in the next step, since you will need to do it with everything powered up and the engine running. You are going to do the Fluke voltage drop tests on the power feed wiring, fuse links and associated parts. Connect one DMM lead to the battery side of the starter solenoid/starter relay. Carefully probe the backside of the black/orange wire connector where it plugs into the alternator. With the engine off, you should see very little voltage. Start the engine and increase the load on the electrical system. Watch for an increase in drop as the load increases. Use the Fluke voltage drop figures as guidelines for your decisions.


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Alternator wiring circuit
Notice the green wire connects to a switched power source. The circuit contains a 500 ohm resistor in series between the switched power and the alternator. Connecting it to switched power keeps the regulator from drawing current when the engine is not running. The resistor limits the current flowing through the wire so that a fuse isn't needed if the wire shorts to ground.

Also notice the sense wire connects to the starter solenoid and it is fused. It connects to the starter solenoid so that it can "sense" the voltage drop across the output wiring from the alternator.
 
So after discovering that the car runs fine without the alternator, here is what we have done since.

If I use a resistor after the alternator, which cuts the volts to 12, the car runs fine with no issue. When I don't use the resistor, the car is putting out 14.5 volts and the engine break up issue is evident. I can continue to run the resistor, however, 12 volts is a bit slim when it comes to charging the battery. I don't use the radio, I rarely use the air conditioning, and I drive the car at night once in a blue moon, so I am not too concerned about the battery dying.

That being said, I still would like to get this issue sorted out correctly. Why would the car not run well at normal voltage levels (14.5), but run fine at a lower voltage level (12)? Also, is there such thing as a resistor where you can set the voltage where you want it? I would like to try and set it around 13 and see what happens. Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.