Best poll ever! Engine types in fox

[Shaolin Crane]

Well this is my point. Again, the only magical design to the ls juan is above the pistons friend. Below this its all the same... so it can be done to a sbf, bbf etc. This is why I included different heads, intake and cam. And if you built yours for 2k you just proved my point, actually both of em. The ford is just heavier. No denying this fact.

Oh justin...

The only thing similar about the sbf and the lsx is they're both pushrods. Everything is different intake to oil pan.

 

[fiveohwblow]

Oh justin...

The only thing similar about the sbf and the lsx is they're both pushrods. Everything is different intake to oil pan.

Oh Guy..... the design may appear different. But they are airpumps. Any engine builder will tell the magic is the cam grind, and heads are most important. I know Ford and Chevy dont interchange parts. I am talking functionality....

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Oh Guy..... the design may appear different. But they are airpumps. Any engine builder will tell the magic is the cam grind, and heads are most important. I know Ford and Chevy dont interchange parts. I am talking functionality....

Like i said, cant change design, the lswon sits further back, lower in the bay and all displacement engines are the same size. The crank is completely in the block as opposed to the sbf, ive already been through this with Nik, the sbf cant touch that. And thats why its better in MY car then a sbf. And you cant say im cheating or cutting corners or being lazy, i have 2 pretty badass engines on stands here.

 

[fiveohwblow]

Like i said, cant change design, the lswon sits further back, lower in the bay and all displacement engines are the same size. The crank is completely in the block as opposed to the sbf, ive already been through this with Nik, the sbf cant touch that. And thats why its better in MY car then a sbf. And you cant say im cheating or cutting corners or being lazy, i have 2 pretty badass engines on stands here.

I havent ever talked **** about your cars, you know that. And I call you a troll cause you give the ls juan all praise and yet you spent ls1 money to build you sbf. I cant bitch about that either. You kept it Ford. Once you bastardize, I will then pursue you like redfoxgt

 

[Shaolin Crane]

I havent ever talked **** about your cars, you know that. And I call you a troll cause you give the ls juan all praise and yet you spent ls1 money to build you sbf. I cant bitch about that either. You kept it Ford. Once you bastardize, I will then pursue you like redfoxgt

Ive already bastardized, see sig

Also remember i had those parts for a LONG time. Even before i sold my dart engine

 

[fiveohwblow]

Ive already bastardized, see sig

Also remember i had those parts for a LONG time. Even before i sold my dart engine

 

[90lxcoupe]

On this school of thought... You said it is 2500-4000 for a complete ls... Hmm.

A 94+ 351 (roller) from yard around here is $200 all day long. Machining is around $150 for it to be tanked, freshened etc etc... Rebuild for another $200 or so, nice set of heads for 1500 from summit or even cheaper on Craig's but well pretend all new, custom cam $350 and miscellaneous like gaskets and valve train another $300.

Block: 200
Mach shop: 150
Rebuild: 200
Heads: 1500
Cam: 350
Gaskets and other:300
Intake manifold: 400

3100 for a potent and stout combo, and that's if you aren't looking for deals. I'm guessing almost 400 to the wheels wouldn't be difficult.

3k is a realistic budget if you used Craig's, or to have 90% if you're going all new/rebuilt.

A. Your numbers are way off for the machine shop, and the price of a 351 from a junkyard.

B. That very vague combo you just whipped out of thin air wouldnt make 400 to the tires.

C. A cam swap, LQ4 with a carb has been proven to make 480hp easily. No trips to the machine shop, just bolt on a cam, valvesprings(included with the cam), and an intake.

A friend of mine looked for a long time for a good 351 block, and paid $350 bucks for one. There not as easy to find as everyone thinks. However, one call to a junkyard within an hour of me and i could have a LQ4 motor for 1500 with a computer. 351's are becoming rare because they have been out of production for a while.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

A. Your numbers are way off for the machine shop, and the price of a 351 from a junkyard.

B. That very vague combo you just whipped out of thin air wouldnt make 400 to the tires.

C. A cam swap, LQ4 with a carb has been proven to make 480hp easily. No trips to the machine shop, just bolt on a cam, valvesprings(included with the cam), and an intake.

A friend of mine looked for a long time for a good 351 block, and paid $350 bucks for one. There not as easy to find as everyone thinks. However, one call to a junkyard within an hour of me and i could have a LQ4 motor for 1500 with a computer. 351's are becoming rare because they have been out of production for a while.

thats actually pretty close to what my machine shop charges the average joe. All my machine work including the .040 pistons was $180(pistons were given to me) but it included all the goodies along with converting the block to 1/2" hardware.

Another $50 he would have assembled it for me, but i chose to since my girlfriend wants to learn as much about engines/cars as possible so i had her help me. I'll do the same with the top end. The small amount for assembly still isnt persuading enough to have him build it when i have a girlfriend willing to get dirty and wants to learn. Mushy time over.

I know there are about 1% of shops in the country that do **** for that cheap, guess im pretty fortunate. Let me know if you ever want heads ported

 

[Mr. Rustypwnz]

A. Your numbers are way off for the machine shop, and the price of a 351 from a junkyard.

B. That very vague combo you just whipped out of thin air wouldnt make 400 to the tires.

C. A cam swap, LQ4 with a carb has been proven to make 480hp easily. No trips to the machine shop, just bolt on a cam, valvesprings(included with the cam), and an intake.

A friend of mine looked for a long time for a good 351 block, and paid $350 bucks for one. There not as easy to find as everyone thinks. However, one call to a junkyard within an hour of me and i could have a LQ4 motor for 1500 with a computer. 351's are becoming rare because they have been out of production for a while.

dude we just got a 74 block for $75, i know of at least 10 for under 100, good bore, mains etc.

my buddy has an lq4 for sale for around $700 right now, he bought it for 200. You can get a lm7/l33 for nothing, but all ls motors are mass produced and so are the fords.

5-6 years ago, I could and did, buy low mile 302 entire engines for 150, and around the same for 351's. Me and bk_cauley used to go throw e7 heads away 10 at a time lol. we had so many intakes and harnesses we gave them away.

 

[NIKwoaC]

I'm definitely in agreement with that, believe me im not mindless about the advantages of the lsx and the windsor. But not all engine fit every application, sure they can be made to do similar things but the edge goes to the lsx plain and simple.

Ehhhhhhh, like you said, it depends on application.

For the average Mustang owner, it makes more sense to build an SBF. No fabrication necessary, and the ~50 lb difference between the LS and the Windsor is going to be almost completely unnoticeable, even if the car is somewhat competitively raced. 50lbs is just a solid diet away for some people.

Also, the biggest common stroker you can do in a LS1 block is 383. You've gotta step it up to an LS2 block before you can go as big as the Windsor can. Also, LS stroker kits are much more expensive than SBF stuff is.

And let's be serious, if you're building for more than 700-800 HP, you've got the coin for an aftermarket Ford block. Then the durability of the iron LS block is kind of a moot point.

So I don't know, I like the LS engine, but I don't think it always has the "edge" over the Windsor. I think the only time it would be the clear winner is if you were building a sub-700 hp race car and you were counting every last pound of weight (and I know this is right up your alley). In that case, the aluminum block LS would probably be the logical choice.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Ehhhhhhh, like you said, it depends on application.

For the average Mustang owner, it makes more sense to build an SBF. No fabrication necessary, and the ~50 lb difference between the LS and the Windsor is going to be almost completely unnoticeable, even if the car is somewhat competitively raced. 50lbs is just a solid diet away for some people.

Also, the biggest common stroker you can do in a LS1 block is 383. You've gotta step it up to an LS2 block before you can go as big as the Windsor can. Also, LS stroker kits are much more expensive than SBF stuff is.

And let's be serious, if you're building for more than 700-800 HP, you've got the coin for an aftermarket Ford block. Then the durability of the iron LS block is kind of a moot point.

So I don't know, I like the LS engine, but I don't think it always has the "edge" over the Windsor. I think the only time it would be the clear winner is if you were building a sub-700 hp race car and you were counting every last pound of weight (and I know this is right up your alley). In that case, the aluminum block LS would probably be the logical choice.

its alot more then 50lbs, and even so, 50lbs off the front suspension is a HUGE difference. Like ive been saying its the best application for MY car, i just its true for ALL cars so to ruffle some feathers. It works too, ive gotten angry texts from just around 2am LOL

 

[90lxcoupe]

Also, the biggest common stroker you can do in a LS1 block is 383. You've gotta step it up to an LS2 block before you can go as big as the Windsor can. Also, LS stroker kits are much more expensive than SBF stuff is.

LS1 block maybe, but the 6.0 truck stuff can go to a 408 no problem

 

[stykthyn]

If the windsor was as competitive as you guys are making it out to be you woukd see a lot more hci fords raping lsxs.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

LS1 block maybe, but the 6.0 truck stuff can go to a 408 no problem

And the ls7 can go up into the 6xx range. What i meant was they're all the same size externally. Meaning you can shoehorn it into anything.

 

[NIKwoaC]

Like i said, cant change design, the lswon sits further back, lower in the bay and all displacement engines are the same size. The crank is completely in the block as opposed to the sbf, ive already been through this with Nik, the sbf cant touch that. And thats why its better in MY car then a sbf. And you cant say im cheating or cutting corners or being lazy, i have 2 pretty badass engines on stands here.

its alot more then 50lbs, and even so, 50lbs off the front suspension is a HUGE difference. Like ive been saying its the best application for MY car, i just its true for ALL cars so to ruffle some feathers. It works too, ive gotten angry texts from just around 2am LOL

Haha, we did just go through this, I thought we decided that the LS does not actually sit further back (reference pictures from page 4 of this thread). Also, as I said earlier in this thread, the aluminum LS1 block is about 120lbs, the iron W is about 170. Hence, 50lbs difference. With aluminum heads/intake and the rotating assembly of your choice in either engine, I would have to imagine that the end result is still going to be near 50 lbs difference (especially if you go with a carb-style EFI intake on the W).

Hey, lookie what I found on the Google machine:

So, after looking at those pictures, I'm beginning to believe that all this about the LS sitting lower and being smaller than the W is complete internet BS. Granted, the Windsor in that pic is measured with a carb-style intake, and as soon as you slap a carb on top of it or put a 5.0-style 2 piece intake on it, it's going to be taller than an LS. However, the dimensions don't lie, and the two long blocks, as it turns out, are very similarly sized.

On this school of thought... You said it is 2500-4000 for a complete ls... Hmm.

A 94+ 351 (roller) from yard around here is $200 all day long. Machining is around $150 for it to be tanked, freshened etc etc... Rebuild for another $200 or so, nice set of heads for 1500 from summit or even cheaper on Craig's but well pretend all new, custom cam $350 and miscellaneous like gaskets and valve train another $300.

Block: 200
Mach shop: 150
Rebuild: 200
Heads: 1500
Cam: 350
Gaskets and other:300
Intake manifold: 400

3100 for a potent and stout combo, and that's if you aren't looking for deals. I'm guessing almost 400 to the wheels wouldn't be difficult.

I know there will be other costs associated, but if you ask Shaolin if he'd spend 1500 on run of the mill cylinder heads he will laugh at you. They can be had for half. That's why I am not accounting for other bs. 3k is a realistic budget if you used Craig's, or to have 90% if you're going all new/rebuilt.

I'm somewhat on board with what you're saying, but I'm going to have to poke a couple holes in it... Sorry!

Stock-for-stock, the LS guts (rotating assembly) are superior to the stock Windsor junk. The Windsor crank is supposed to be fairly strong, but the rods are the first things to go mushy, and that's if you manage to keep together the cast pistons. The Lightning engines came with more durable hypereutectic pistons, but still, the whole rotating assembly is going to be weaker (and likely heavier) than the stock LS stuff.

Start talking about aftermarket stroker kits, though, and then the playing field levels out.

Let me also be the first to say here that I HATE the junkyard price argument. It's completely irrelevant, because even if I can only find LS engines locally for $3000+, somebody from 6 states over is going to come along and tell me how he paid $50 for a Corvette engine with 10K miles on it. Then the argument goes to ****.

A perfect example is the local u-pull it joint. IIRC, ANY V8 from them is ~$200 if you remove it yourself. But then, they also have special deal days in which if you can carry it out with one trip, you can take as much as you want for like 80 bucks. So hell, I'll put a Windsor under one arm and a LS1 in the other and we'll have two for $40 a piece! Of course, that's if I remember to eat my vegetables the day before, and the stars align and there is actually a decent low mileage example of ANY engine in that damn yard on that particular day.

So I prefer to stick to the technical side of the argument. I'll let you guys hash out the value and availability of used parts, haha.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Im tellin you Nik, gotta look at the whole package. My intake touches the firewall seam. The lsx sits lower then the seam and touches the firewall in that area below it, thats at least an inch further back, the bellhousing also sits further into the trans tunnel, even if you use a different intake the sbf bellhousing will hit the tunnel. Even the pciture says the lq truck oil pan is 3" deeper, lets keep it to the car pan. Even less with dry sump. But hey, until i actually do it i'm just jackstand racing

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Just measured my engine, intake to oil pan and it measured 31.5"

 

[NIKwoaC]

Im tellin you Nik, gotta look at the whole package. My intake touches the firewall seam. The lsx sits lower then the seam and touches the firewall in that area below it, thats at least an inch further back, the bellhousing also sits further into the trans tunnel, even if you use a different intake the sbf bellhousing will hit the tunnel. Even the pciture says the lq truck oil pan is 3" deeper, lets keep it to the car pan. Even less with dry sump.

I've got a few ideas for ya, then.

View attachment 164810

Or:

I mean seriously, if you're prepared to go through the trouble of an LS swap, I think you can handle finding out a way to get around that 1" tab of sheet metal.

Just measured my engine, intake to oil pan and it measured 31.5"

Like I said, once you slap on the 5.0-style EFI intake, it's probably going to be taller.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Then i'd have no spot for the STB

Besides, I dont want the car to look like total **** either, i mean i JUST painted the bay last year

 

[NIKwoaC]

Haha, well, every LS swap I've read about required some amount of sledge hammering or sawzall-cutting to the existing sheet metal to get it to fit. SO if you want to do it, get comfortable with the idea.