Motor Trend Boss 302 LS vs. Camaro ZL1

[asims33]

I just read that the zl1 weighs over 4k lbs it's no wonder the boss keeps up

 

[Norm Peterson]

In addition to what Mitch mentioned above, the Boss was kept off the FIA curbs after hitting them the first time. This effectively tightens the corner up a little (which costs you midcorner speed plus speed potential all the way down the next straight).

A fair comparison for comparing the cars as they are street driven would have had both cars stay off the curbs.

If it's hair-on-fire qualifying laps that you're interested in comparing, then you need to do whatever shock tweaking that it takes and tolerate however much skittering on rough road conditions (short of losing control) that happens.


Fitz - the Camaro bashing that I've seen has been tied to things like weight, bulk, outward visibility, and handling that's less nimble than the Mustang's. I'm not a fanboi for or against any car, but the first three of those items are matters of fact. As for the fourth -at least in terms of cornering/handling at roughly street driving speeds, the SCCA's F-Stock autocross class (basically the place for stockish V8 RWD ponycars) is pretty much an S197 playground these days. Sam Strano - with a long history driving Camaros including National Championships - jumped over to the Shelby GT (not the GT500) and ran off with (I think it's four) consecutive National Championships.


Norm

 

[Bullitt347]

I noticed that the ZL-1 had front tires as big as the Boss 302 rear tires and the ZL-1 rear tires were 20mm wider (over 3/4 inch wider per tire, meaning over 1 1/2" more tire on the ground) than the Boss 302 rear tires. .....................Hmmm, wonder if that did not have something to do with the track performance as well.

 

[JKidd]

I noticed that the ZL-1 had front tires as big as the Boss 302 rear tires and the ZL-1 rear tires were 20mm wider (over 3/4 inch wider per tire, meaning over 1 1/2" more tire on the ground) than the Boss 302 rear tires. .....................Hmmm, wonder if that did not have something to do with the track performance as well.

Sure it did. So did having more power than the Boss as well as having a more technologically advanced suspension (and apparently, very well sorted), and having excellent balance with the corresponding control that that results in: "The constantly variable damping rates make the Camaro feel as though its tires sink into the track. Bumps that shook the Boss simply disappeared and never upset the ZL1. More important, more of the track became usable since curbing wouldn't throw the Camaro into a tailspin."

 

[asims33]

Idk about all that the camaro won fair and square however when you have cars with comparable handling and one had over 100hp advantage I expected that but when the 2013 Shelby comes out that's the comparison they need to make the zl1 is just too heavy IMO

 

[Fitzburgh]

In addition to what Mitch mentioned above, the Boss was kept off the FIA curbs after hitting them the first time. This effectively tightens the corner up a little (which costs you midcorner speed plus speed potential all the way down the next straight).

A fair comparison for comparing the cars as they are street driven would have had both cars stay off the curbs.

If it's hair-on-fire qualifying laps that you're interested in comparing, then you need to do whatever shock tweaking that it takes and tolerate however much skittering on rough road conditions (short of losing control) that happens.


Fitz - the Camaro bashing that I've seen has been tied to things like weight, bulk, outward visibility, and handling that's less nimble than the Mustang's. I'm not a fanboi for or against any car, but the first three of those items are matters of fact. As for the fourth -at least in terms of cornering/handling at roughly street driving speeds, the SCCA's F-Stock autocross class (basically the place for stockish V8 RWD ponycars) is pretty much an S197 playground these days. Sam Strano - with a long history driving Camaros including National Championships - jumped over to the Shelby GT (not the GT500) and ran off with (I think it's four) consecutive National Championships.


Norm

Norm- Thanks for the friendly reply. Like I said before, I like both of the cars and would buy either one.
I guess what I'm tired of reading is people who dog out one hot car over another without taking either one
on a test drive. I'm thrilled that America is producing world class muscle cars now and can keep up with
and supass the so-called supercars of Europe.
When I was a young guy in the 70s, the battle between Ford and Chevy raged. It's no suprize that it is still
raging. I'm excited to see the new GT when it hits the road.

 

[Bullitt347]

Idk about all that the camaro won fair and square however when you have cars with comparable handling and one had over 100hp advantage I expected that but when the 2013 Shelby comes out that's the comparison they need to make the zl1 is just too heavy IMO

I like how you say the Camaro won fair and square, and then point out how it was not a fair comparison.

 

[asims33]

I like how you say the Camaro won fair and square, and then point out how it was not a fair comparison.

I mean it won against the boss fair and square ppl are talking about tires and shocks ect ect and I'm simply saying it doesn't matter cause it had a 100 hp advantage we all know it's silly to expect the boss to compete with 580 hp pony car but it's not like the camaro had to cheat to win Is my point

 

[Norm Peterson]

I mean it won against the boss fair and square ppl are talking about tires and shocks ect ect and I'm simply saying it doesn't matter cause it had a 100 hp advantage we all know it's silly to expect the boss to compete with 580 hp pony car but it's not like the camaro had to cheat to win Is my point

The 100 hp advantage is absolutely meaningless in the middle of a corner (where the Camaro was noted as being able to carry just a little more speed, for the reasons that it seems you'd rather not talk about). Neither car could be anywhere near WOT there and probably weren't even putting 75 down to the pavement.

IIRC, the midcorner speed difference was something like 4 mph. Even if the two cars had dead-even acceleration down the next straightaway, the car with the higher cornering speed could gain about a quarter of a second going down the straight just because it was going faster at the start of it. Four of those in a lap is already a second out of that two-and-something.

If that's too many numbers too early in the day, suppose that you were in a little side-by-side sprint from a 40 mph roll, except that the other guy got to start his run from 44 mph? Let's make them identical cars to take any power or whatever other differences out of it. Would you consider that a fair way to compare those two cars? Would you put money on yourself, starting at 40?

Bottom line - I'm not saying that the 100 hp advantage didn't count for some of the lap time difference, because obviously it did. What I am saying is that the 100 hp did not account for all of it.


Norm

 

[asims33]

The 100 hp advantage is absolutely meaningless in the middle of a corner (where the Camaro was noted as being able to carry just a little more speed, for the reasons that it seems you'd rather not talk about). Neither car could be anywhere near WOT there and probably weren't even putting 75 down to the pavement.

IIRC, the midcorner speed difference was something like 4 mph. Even if the two cars had dead-even acceleration down the next straightaway, the car with the higher cornering speed could gain about a quarter of a second going down the straight just because it was going faster at the start of it. Four of those in a lap is already a second out of that two-and-something.

If that's too many numbers too early in the day, suppose that you were in a little side-by-side sprint from a 40 mph roll, except that the other guy got to start his run from 44 mph? Let's make them identical cars to take any power or whatever other differences out of it. Would you consider that a fair way to compare those two cars? Would you put money on yourself, starting at 40?

Bottom line - I'm not saying that the 100 hp advantage didn't count for some of the lap time difference, because obviously it did. What I am saying is that the 100 hp did not account for all of it.


Norm

You just made my point a bit better than I did. Don't get me wrong guys I agree it was not a fair matchup my point in all this is that some of us need to just admit the boss lost this one and I highly doubt changing the shocks that little bit and changing tires would have changed the outcome is all I'm saying. i hate gm products so in no way do I even like the zl1 but I see people here acting like the outcome in this race was fixed and all I'm saying Is it wasnt.

A large portion of that track had to do with straight line speed and even though its not much the camaro has an advantage there (even though the damn thing weighs over 2 tons).

Let me just sum this up because im not saying the camaro is a better car or that this was a matchup that even made sense to do. Now maybe changing tires and adjusting the shocks would have helped the mustang a bit more, however would that be enough to over come a 2 second loss? No it wouldnt, thats my point, my argument is not directed at the mustang being sub par because we all know its absolutely not at all. My argument is to the fan boys who are acting like this was unfair not because of the HP diff but because of tires and shocks even knowing it was a loss not by a nose but by a full 2 seconds which is a very long time in racing.

I am a mustang guy through and through but expecting the boss to pull this one out was expecting a bit too much. Its just like in a Road and Track article i just read where they put the Camaro up against the Nissan GT-R, to expect the camaro to win that one was stupid but they tried it anyway.

The funny thing here is that the camaro could barley beat the boss even with its 55k price tag I cant wait to see the Shelby spank that camaro.

At the end of the day GM put a 580HP motor in a camaro shell and didnt worry at all about performance, they tried to over power their way through stuff, thats why cars with comporable HP such as the Nissan GT-R even with 40 less HP killed it in a road race and in straigh line race because of weight and a better designed suspension system. And thats why a car with over 100HP less can keep up because it shed the 700lbs that the camaro has on it and it has a well desinged chasis.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The weight difference was right around 400#, not 700.

I'm willing to call the weight difference and the tire width issue a wash.

But after taking out a second for the corner speed issue, the 136 hp and 7.0 lb/hp vs 8.2 Camaro advantages should have been worth more than 1.4 seconds. Even if the corner speed difference only amounted to half a second per lap, the power and power to weight differences should have been worth more than 1.9.

If you're going to extract any meaningful conclusions, it would be fair to say that either the 444 HP Boss Boss punches above its weight or the 580 HP ZL1 a bit under its. Maybe a little of each???

I'm a little bit behind in my magazine reading - I have the R&T issue but haven't been able to get to it yet.

I'd be calling this exactly the same way if I had a Camaro instead and this was CamaroZ28.com. Hell, I've been a member over there for 11 years and change, so I might just go on over there just to see how those guys are seeing it.


Norm

 

[JKidd]

If you're going to extract any meaningful conclusions, it would be fair to say that either the 444 HP Boss Boss punches above its weight or the 580 HP ZL1 a bit under its. Maybe a little of each???

Well said.

Anyone catch Top Gear (American) episode last night where the Stig took a Roush Stage III Mustang around the track as well as a Boss 302? The Boss took it by about 0.7 seconds (IIRC)...even being outpowered by the Roush (my brother put money on the Roush, I put money on the Boss I had figured the track wasn't set up in a way for the Roush to take advantage of the extra power it had the and superb handling balance of the Boss would allow it to be driven harder/faster through the course.

The Boss is still a wicked outstanding package but I'm actually glad to see the Camaro performing so well. No rest for the wicked!!!

 

[asims33]

Agreed i cant be more pleased with how the domestic companies are waking up and providing nice cars again. Not sure what GM will have to do to earn my support again but as far as the zl1 they done a good job with it. Cant wait to see what comes from these 2-companies next!