Octane boosters
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Yep... it puts money into the pockets of people who know that there are folks out there that know no better. 
There was a good article that ran a comparison between octane boost products. IIRC they tested it with 87, 89, and 91 octane fuel and evaluated how much additional octane was obtained by using each additive. I don't remember who wrote the article, I just remember reading it on the chitter one time.
Honestly, for the price of the additives it is probably cheaper and less effort to just buy higher octane fuel at the pump if you're running an aftermarket tune. On a stock tune, there is absolutely no reason to run a higher octane than that which is recommended by the manufacturer.
Honestly, for the price of the additives it is probably cheaper and less effort to just buy higher octane fuel at the pump if you're running an aftermarket tune. On a stock tune, there is absolutely no reason to run a higher octane than that which is recommended by the manufacturer.
We used to run that in an old '78 Landcruiser. Could actually feel a difference in that ~250 cu. in. inline 6 when the bottle was refilled ... and again when it ran dry.Water/Meth injection is a perfect octane booster....although this is probably above and beyond what you're asking. Methanol injection FTW!
Water/Meth injection is a perfect octane booster.
...and as equally useless unless you're tuned for it.
Not necessarily. Ever notice how some engines (particularly smaller displacement engines ... and I would consider 4.6L on the small side of the scale) feel like they're pulling stronger when it's been raining? That's because the air is cooler and more dense. The trick to a water/methanol injection system is to induce it as a very fine vapor upstream from the carbu ... er, I mean throttle body. The old cheap systems which merely used a vacuum draw directly into the throat of the carb(s) weren't as effective. We had a porous ceramic venturi with a K&N style filter with about 2 feet of hose feeding the carburetor. We ran 25% methanol (wood alcohol), but continued to get decent results using water alone.
...and you get even MORE of a boost when that air is cool and dry. It is not an advantage to have moist air ingested into the engine unless you are take advantage of the octane raising characteristic of water vapor. The majority of the advantage that you feel in the circumstances you describe are the result of the cooler (and by effect denser, air). The disadvantage to moist cool air is that a good portion of that added density is being displaced by moisture. How do you offset that disadvantage? You tune for it. The only way to really do that though, is to have it consistent (i.e. a quality system that consistently and finely atomizes the flow of water or water/meth).
With few exceptions, just adding a water meth kit (and doing nothing else) will not increase your net power gain (particularly in gasoline powered engines).
Add that water meth kit and lean out the fuel while advancing timing (to get into the center of that new sweet spot) is where you will see something akin the power increases claimed by nearly every injection system company under the sun.
Now that said, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to sit on the dyno and be digitally tuned to obtain a net advantage. I've seen some very nice results from merely advancing timing and running high otunes (shelf tunes) on everyday pump gas with addition of water/meth. That in itself though, is tuning.
I respectfully disagree my man. Water/Meth is going to allow for consistency over time if you don't tune for it, plus it's going to help keep your engine clean...and therefore preserving engine life if used the right way. It's a safety net. It's that simple. If you do tune for it, you will see some serious gains. You just have to be smart about what fluids you use if you don't tune for it, and if you do tune for it....well...make sure you always have juice in the tank.
My setup is purely for safety at the track; road course. When temps go up all around, engine performance goes down. My setup keeps my motor running optimally 20+ minutes into a session that is about to end and I've finally tracked down that M or Porsche or vette or some other hopped up ride I've been wanting to get around...as an example.
And this is my personal experience with it. All positives. Only random horror stories I've heard are from dumbasses who don't know what they're doing...and you will see that in any profession, any hobby.
That cool. I've had this debate before so here's your challenge. Hit the track again when you've got the time. A dyno would be even better. Run a couple of laps with water injection on then again without it. Unless your motor is already sitting on the verge of detonation or your cooling system inadequate and relying on water injection, then you are hurting performance by just spraying.
I wish I'd kept every dyno print sheet I'd ever had or I could post a back to back reference for you of a 60 HP loss on a 480 RW stroker running a positive displacement blower. Frankly, the tuner and I were both shocked. lol As tuning went though... the final result was total net gain of some 87 HP. In this particular case the total difference between tuned and un-tuned was over 140 HP!
Granted this is a very specific app that I'm talking about here and gains/losses will scale differently for combination X. The moral of the story though... If you're not changing anything other than just slapping the injection system in on a gas motor, you are most likely LOSING HP. Those few exceptions might be combos that are already tuned to the ragged edge and beyond that tuned, sweet spot I mentioned above. I HAVE seen a couple applications where meth netted a gain out of the box. NONE of those were stock or OEM combos/tunes.
Challenge accepted, and first attempt was already made about a month and a half ago.
Background: over the course of a year and a half, pre-meth but still boosted, my car hardly missed a beat...and with numerous track days notched into my belt. After boosting, she made 491/420 on a cool March morning. Year and a half later, 488/422 on another dyno in the middle of the day at the end of the summer. And like I said, hardly missed a beat. Two of my sparkplugs actually unwound themselves a couple times after track weekends. A little reading into that turned up that detonation might be the cause.
A while back, I installed my meth kit but waited until a month and a half ago to finally see what she made on a dyno. I finally had a day to myself to do this, so I called every friggin dyno facility in the DC area to see who could squeeze me in. Found one just north of DC, so I took the trip. I drive her up on the rollers, we tie her down, and the owner makes the first pull: 465/409. I'm wondering WTF, but the owner stopped and asked how much I made previously. I told him the previous numbers and he came clean that his dyno reads the lowest in the DC area. LOL, he could've warned me ahead of time...and probably why he was the only guy with an open appointment, huh? Second pull was 467/411. He told me not to worry, and he said on any other dyno in the area the numbers we just got would translate to around 500whp. It is just something about his dyno and how it's setup, and he couldn't figure it out. People started calling it the heartbreaker. He pointed to his Viper, and said it lays down over 460 on other dynos, but on his it's always right around 420 lol.
Now, we all know that dyno results vary from facility to facility. I thought it was pretty awesome that after a year and a half, the numbers remained consistent. And I am disappointed that I couldn't get on a reputable dyno to see the outcome. I'll have to take the guys word for it that the numbers should be what he said.
I'm moving back to Norfolk in about a month, so I've been on the lookout for a reputable shop with reputable dyno to see if I can get an accurate reading.
Here's to hoping.
Oh, and since adding meth, my plugs have not found a way to unwind themselves.
Moochman4life
I had to read through that a couple of times to see how it related but I think I got the gist of it.
Lemme see if I got this straight:
You installed a SC
You Dynoed on 3 different occations.
Made 491 on a cool morning
Made 488 on a summer afternoon
Installed meth kit
Made 465 and 467 on back to back pulls with meth on a different dyno that the guy says should translate to 500 HP on any other dyno.
Though I understand your intent, all of that isn't really relavent to the point that I'm attempting to make.
The point is that slapping a water/meth kit onto gasoline engine with no tuning to make use of the benefit is right up there with having tits on a boar hog (I live in Arkansas, it's a common analogy
). In most circumstances, the water/meth will have an adverse effect on power production for two reasons. You are displacing air volume with water (you do realize that they use this stuff to PUT OUT fires, right? 
) and you are not taking advantage of the side effects (cooler dense air charge, increase in octane, and others that are not as, "in your face important" as the first two). By injecting water, you are in effect, reducing (or slowing) the combustion within the cylinder.
Granted, the cooler dense air charge largely off-sets it's own air charge displacement. Water is an excellent absorber of heat and cooler air by mass, will find it's way into the combustion chamber. Even more so on a boosted app where the water charge is injected AFTER that air mass has been compressed (not the best idea to do it before hand but that's another discussion) where the air will be at it's hottest prior to combustion.
So we still have two major properties that we haven't taken advantage of: We're not taking advantage of the ability to increase timing, and we're probably still pumping more fuel into the combustion chamber than we need to make power (the more fuel you inject (rich) the more power will drop off). Generally, you tune for power then add a hair more fuel for the sake of safety.
Now let's take your exmple above and try and relate:
You used the injection system to counter the effects above. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR! lol Had your combo been properly tuned in the first place, then you would not have had those symptoms. Who knows though... perhaps WITH the meth, it is properly tuned now?
You were running either too much timing, or not enough fuel, not enough octane, or a combination of all... Furthermore, I would bet you a dollar that you still have HP sitting on the table that you are currently not taking advantage of since adding your meth kit. 
As a sidenote: I recently ran into a buddy of mine who drives nearly stock 3/4 ton Chevy truck to haul his 5th wheel. He gained 60 HP and nearly 90 ft lbs of torque from a meth injections kit and off-the-shelf tune from Bully Dog.
I don't discount the value of water injection AT ALL. What I do discount are legends and myths about slapping an injection kit on your daily driver and getting those kinds of gains with nothing else.
What is worse is that in most circumstances, merely adding water injection will DECREASE HP.
I had to read through that a couple of times to see how it related but I think I got the gist of it.
Lemme see if I got this straight:
You installed a SC
You Dynoed on 3 different occations.
Made 491 on a cool morning
Made 488 on a summer afternoon
Installed meth kit
Made 465 and 467 on back to back pulls with meth on a different dyno that the guy says should translate to 500 HP on any other dyno.
Though I understand your intent, all of that isn't really relavent to the point that I'm attempting to make.
The point is that slapping a water/meth kit onto gasoline engine with no tuning to make use of the benefit is right up there with having tits on a boar hog (I live in Arkansas, it's a common analogy
). In most circumstances, the water/meth will have an adverse effect on power production for two reasons. You are displacing air volume with water (you do realize that they use this stuff to PUT OUT fires, right? ) and you are not taking advantage of the side effects (cooler dense air charge, increase in octane, and others that are not as, "in your face important" as the first two). By injecting water, you are in effect, reducing (or slowing) the combustion within the cylinder.Granted, the cooler dense air charge largely off-sets it's own air charge displacement. Water is an excellent absorber of heat and cooler air by mass, will find it's way into the combustion chamber. Even more so on a boosted app where the water charge is injected AFTER that air mass has been compressed (not the best idea to do it before hand but that's another discussion) where the air will be at it's hottest prior to combustion.
So we still have two major properties that we haven't taken advantage of: We're not taking advantage of the ability to increase timing, and we're probably still pumping more fuel into the combustion chamber than we need to make power (the more fuel you inject (rich) the more power will drop off). Generally, you tune for power then add a hair more fuel for the sake of safety.
Now let's take your exmple above and try and relate:
You used the injection system to counter the effects above. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR! lol Had your combo been properly tuned in the first place, then you would not have had those symptoms. Who knows though... perhaps WITH the meth, it is properly tuned now?
You were running either too much timing, or not enough fuel, not enough octane, or a combination of all... Furthermore, I would bet you a dollar that you still have HP sitting on the table that you are currently not taking advantage of since adding your meth kit. As a sidenote: I recently ran into a buddy of mine who drives nearly stock 3/4 ton Chevy truck to haul his 5th wheel. He gained 60 HP and nearly 90 ft lbs of torque from a meth injections kit and off-the-shelf tune from Bully Dog.
I don't discount the value of water injection AT ALL. What I do discount are legends and myths about slapping an injection kit on your daily driver and getting those kinds of gains with nothing else.
What is worse is that in most circumstances, merely adding water injection will DECREASE HP.
I understand your points, and they're well taken...and I apologize if I was generating some confusion.
I threw up those dyno numbers because I thought that WAS the point you were trying to make: that just slapping a water-meth kit is going to do absolutely nothing without a tune? And like I mentioned, my test was almost wholly inconclusive and still ongoing lol...and it looks like I'll have to wait before I can get my ride back up on a legit dyno to find out. Don't hold your breath for the results though, my man...don't know when that's happening.
You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating. How can you not like something that is going to help cool intake temps, give a slight octane boost, help clean the motor, and keep the darn thing running optimally.
What I hope you understood is that I did not state that anyone could slap a kit on a car, not tune for it, and gain 60whp. Did you think that? I think in some applications (boosted, anyone?) you can (not WILL, but CAN) actually gain a few...and that was really the point I was trying to make after you jumped into the thread. Gain a few, not 60. You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating.
And like I'll tell anyone: my setup is entirely for track usage, more specifically road course duty where I want optimum consistency throughout a 20-30 minute session on a hot day, 4+ times a day. It's not "kill mode". It's a safety blanket, and I'm hoping you understood that, too.
, to be honest, I didn't even really care too much about gaining any hp to begin with. I'm not a betting man...in this case, I know you're right about leaving power on the table, but that's not why i built mine.
I threw up those dyno numbers because I thought that WAS the point you were trying to make: that just slapping a water-meth kit is going to do absolutely nothing without a tune? And like I mentioned, my test was almost wholly inconclusive and still ongoing lol...and it looks like I'll have to wait before I can get my ride back up on a legit dyno to find out. Don't hold your breath for the results though, my man...don't know when that's happening.
You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating. How can you not like something that is going to help cool intake temps, give a slight octane boost, help clean the motor, and keep the darn thing running optimally.
What I hope you understood is that I did not state that anyone could slap a kit on a car, not tune for it, and gain 60whp. Did you think that? I think in some applications (boosted, anyone?) you can (not WILL, but CAN) actually gain a few...and that was really the point I was trying to make after you jumped into the thread. Gain a few, not 60. You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating.
And like I'll tell anyone: my setup is entirely for track usage, more specifically road course duty where I want optimum consistency throughout a 20-30 minute session on a hot day, 4+ times a day. It's not "kill mode". It's a safety blanket, and I'm hoping you understood that, too.
, to be honest, I didn't even really care too much about gaining any hp to begin with. I'm not a betting man...in this case, I know you're right about leaving power on the table, but that's not why i built mine.
I understand your points, and they're well taken...and I apologize if I was generating some confusion.
I threw up those dyno numbers because I thought that WAS the point you were trying to make: that just slapping a water-meth kit is going to do absolutely nothing without a tune? And like I mentioned, my test was almost wholly inconclusive and still ongoing lol...and it looks like I'll have to wait before I can get my ride back up on a legit dyno to find out. Don't hold your breath for the results though, my man...don't know when that's happening.
You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating. How can you not like something that is going to help cool intake temps, give a slight octane boost, help clean the motor, and keep the darn thing running optimally.
What I hope you understood is that I did not state that anyone could slap a kit on a car, not tune for it, and gain 60whp. Did you think that? I think in some applications (boosted, anyone?) you can (not WILL, but CAN) actually gain a few...and that was really the point I was trying to make after you jumped into the thread. Gain a few, not 60. You said it was useless without a tune, and that's what I'm debating.
And like I'll tell anyone: my setup is entirely for track usage, more specifically road course duty where I want optimum consistency throughout a 20-30 minute session on a hot day, 4+ times a day. It's not "kill mode". It's a safety blanket, and I'm hoping you understood that, too.
****, to be honest, I didn't even really care too much about gaining any hp to begin with. I'm not a betting man...in this case, I know you're right about leaving power on the table, but that's not why i built mine.
My initial statement of:
may have been a bit absolute (we all know that there are anomalies out there). I don't consider your description/combo to be an anomaly because it sounds like your tune was already too hot for conditions.
The intent though, is to indicate to folks that just putting a water injection system on a motor thinking they're increasing performance is in most cases, untrue. OEM motors and their factory tunes are pretty damned good at doing what they were designed to do. A 2005-2009 for instance... Slap a water meth kit on it and do back to back dynos. My guess (having not done with an 05 to 09 personally) is a 10%+ loss overall. Install a blower and, 'detune' for boost (retard timing, enrich fuel) so that it runs right. Then install water meth... again, you will likely loose power until you put that timing back in and remove some of that fuel you put in when tuning for boost. That's really the point of water injection in the first place.
If the tune on your combo is already on the ragged edge (more timing then it should have and running leaner than it should) then that would be stellar opportunity for water injection to shine at what it does. What's more... a little tweaking to make even more use of the benefits should yield even more power.
Ok... so after beating that horse to death, I have just three more things.
Just want to ensure everyone understands that to make the most out of water/meth, you need to have a quality kit and you need to tune to get the most out of it.
Those apps where I have seen some AMAZING results from adding JUST the water injection kit were turbo diesels.
If you invest in a kit for a driver, I recommend kits with the trouble switch/light. Mine pulls timing if it doesn't activate at WOT or if the bottle is empty. So in effect, there are two tunes.
MrBone
New Member
SO, from all of this I take that a bottle of octane boost added to the tank is just wasting my money... unless I'm blown, sucked, or tuned for racing?
Sorry, had to throw that in there. This is actually a very educational thread... learning a lot. Thanks to all!!
Sorry, had to throw that in there. This is actually a very educational thread... learning a lot. Thanks to all!!
rd
Founding Member
Sort of apples to oranges, but my 97 F150 4.6 2v pings and rattles like crazy towing with 87 octane gas. So it always gets 91 or whatever. A couple times it has been filled with 87 and I started towing, and stopped and added a bottle of 104 Octane Boost (iirc), and it sure seemed to help. Run out a half tank, and refill with 91+ and its good to go again. Bullitt seems to adapt to whatever is in the tank much better.
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