I have awful luck!

[95Vert383AOD]

Well although it wouldn't run optimally i couldn't see a 351 with 302 parts performing worse than a 302 with those same parts. You will see similar HP hp numbers at lower rpms with more torque. (Stump pulling truck motor) It will still be a fun car to drive either way.

Both the 302 and the 351 platform are pretty crappy platforms to start from. But i don't see everyone swapping Ls1 Motors in.

From someone who has done a 351 swap a couple of times once in a 1990 lincoln Mark 7 and my current 95 mustang. Its really not that bad. Before the 351 swap i had never swapped an engine before in any car. I did it by googling the crap out of the subject. A turbo 351 only needs 1 5/8" headers which opens the door to many CHEAP options. Weight difference between the 2 motors is around 50lbs Get aluminum heads the weight difference isnt even worth mentioning. Put the battery in the back and remove some unnecessary extras and you will have to adjust the alignment toe for the lighter engine.

Some info...
http://www.svtcobraltd.com/351Swap.html

 

[2000xp8]

I don't mind going boosted, and I think I can piece together a turbo kit for less than 1000 dollars. The thing that these guys have been trying to get me to realize is, I can spen 200 on a 302 short block and bolt everything on and go. Then if I want the 351 I can get the block and start working on it, and eventually when I get the motor built and ready to go I can swap it. This way instead of spending who knows really how much money just to get the car back on the road, I can get it running and driving and then work on building the big motor.

Lol, rebel we are going to have to work on this pricing system you use.
DIY turbo's rarely work out and you need welding equipment and above average skills.
A turbo setup by the time it works properly is going to set you back 3-5 times that budget.

You gotta crawl before you walk.

95vert, i'll take an aluminum headed 302 over an iron headed 351 any day of the week.
Lighter, quicker and will make notably more power.
That's why we are discouraging him from going down the 351 path.
A 351 is by no means hard, with the right parts it can make for a killer engine, but gt40p heads and an f cam, aren't exactly the right parts.

 

[rebelboy194]

I know you gotta crawl before you walk, but I'm not saying building a huge turbo setup, and I'm not saying I'm going that route either. I just stating that I have the equipment and skills necessary to build a turbo setup on the cheap. Now I know there is a lot more to it than just throw a turbo on it and go. Right now I'm just trying to figure out motor wise. I am not worried about boost or spray or any of that. I want to get the car running and running well. I'm tired of looking at it sit there because then it just makes me want to get rid of it, and I really don't want to do that. I want to build a well rounded car, but I am starting with the engine and I have decided on the 302, and then I'm going to price building a 331 or 347 and see what I can do.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

So many nay sayers in here. a stock 302 makes god awful sub 200hp at the wheels. But it doesnt stop people from buying a top end kit. Its just a top end kit on a 351 will cost an extra $1500 roughly between the extra price on the heads and the more expensive 351 intake required.

Well....there's a little more to people choosing to build their 302W over swapping out to a 351W than just the added expense of the heads and intake.

For starters.....the 302 is already sitting in the car, ready to go. No buying additional swap parts necessary. It's also a lot cheaper, easier and less time consuming to do a top end only swap, than a full engine removal, build up and install.

Also...it's true a 302HO makes a pretty paultry 200RWHP to start with....but then what's a stone stock 351W? I mean a lucky few might find one out of a wrecked 1st Gen Lightning that had at least a decent head and intake combination (parts still more suited to a 302W though). Otherwise, your only option for the EFI crowd is an F150 or full size Van. In which case you'll pick up a touch more torque n the lower regions, but actually make about 10 or so less horsepower at the wheels. Same crappy heads, but even crappier cast pistons....spinning an even heavier rotating assembly to boot. And unless you want to run a 5" cowl hood to clear that monster truck EFI intake, you'll still need to spend a good chunk of change on an aftermarket replacement.

As you said a 351W swap is a sure path, to big N/A horsepower and torque numbers, but unless you plan on going balls out, it's really not worth the effort.

I want to build a well rounded car, but I am starting with the engine and I have decided on the 302, and then I'm going to price building a 331 or 347 and see what I can do.

If you want a nice DIY set up, check out fordstrokers.com. They sill their DIY "Liberty" short block stroker kits at a great price. You can buy them unassembled for under $2,000

 

[95Vert383AOD]

Personally i rather pull an engine in an hour or 2 then spend 5-6 hours hunched over a hood torquing heads and intakes. So much easier to drop the front brackets and yank the whole drive train. Alot less bolts too.

A top end swap is basically whats keeping the 351 from making power just like the beloved 302. The thicker crank isn't going to make that much of a difference. Remember a fully dressed 302 vs a 351 is 50 pounds...thats including the taller block wider intake and thicker crank.

The 95 s351 mustang had a very mild cam. and a GT40 head and intake. It made around 300hp. Which is not far from HP goals the average 302 guy has when adding a $2600 trickflow top end kit.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Personally i rather pull an engine in an hour or 2 then spend 5-6 hours hunched over a hood torquing heads and intakes. So much easier to drop the front brackets and yank the whole drive train. Alot less bolts too.

Pulling the engine is only half the battle though. You've still got to build the 351W, then drop it back in. That 2-hour engine pull can turn into a a full weekend before you know it.

A top end swap is basically whats keeping the 351 from making power just like the beloved 302. The thicker crank isn't going to make that much of a difference. Remember a fully dressed 302 vs a 351 is 50 pounds...thats including the taller block wider intake and thicker crank.

That may be true....but how much of that 50lbs is located in the crank? Even if it's 5lbs....that 5lbs at 5,000RPM is a lot of rotational mass.

This I suspect is the reason when compared side by side with all other factors being equal, a 302 based 347-stroker outperforms a 351W?

The 95 s351 mustang had a very mild cam. and a GT40 head and intake. It made around 300hp. Which is not far from HP goals the average 302 guy has when adding a $2600 trickflow top end kit.

True, the Trick Flow top end is a little spendy, but admittedly you're besting the S351 by about 50hp after all is said and done. And again....S351's are't exactly littering the wrecking yards wait to be picked clean by would be swap guys. Even if you were to build your own, you've still got to source a set of 351 based GT40's (or have them machined for the 1/2" head bolts) and GT40 intake. That'll cut into the budget and take a bite out of the Trick Flow top end cost. And again...this still doesn't cover the cost of the swap parts.

 

[95Vert383AOD]

Pulling the engine is only half the battle though. You've still got to build the 351W, then drop it back in. That 2-hour engine pull can turn into a a full weekend before you know it.

That may be true....but how much of that 50lbs is located in the crank? Even if it's 5lbs....that 5lbs at 5,000RPM is a lot of rotational mass.

This I suspect is the reason when compared side by side with all other factors being equal, a 302 based 347-stroker outperforms a 351W?

True, the Trick Flow top end is a little spendy, but admittedly you're besting the S351 by about 50hp after all is said and done. And again....S351's are't exactly littering the wrecking yards wait to be picked clean by would be swap guys. Even if you were to build your own, you've still got to source a set of 351 based GT40's (or have them machined for the 1/2" head bolts) and GT40 intake. That'll cut into the budget and take a bite out of the Trick Flow top end cost. And again...this still doesn't cover the cost of the swap parts.

I'm not saying to source a s351 that would be nuts.(only 250 made) What i am saying is ford built the s351 with FORD parts that they used on many other production vehicles....You can use a gt40 351 lower and any cobra/gt40 upper. There's even a company that makes spacer adapters to install a 302 intake lower in a 351.

The OP says his 302 was on a stand and fell over. So at this point he was planning to install some kind of motor. And judging on the duration of this thread alone its already been longer than a weekend project already. Why not just put the 351 he has on that stand.

GearBanger Have you even did a 351 swap before?

Remember ford installed 351's in CARS like the late 70's early 80's LTD. The parts are out there. Only time it gets expensive to do a basic swap is if you want EFI but were talking $500 for a trickflow 351 efi intake upper and lower. Carbed would be cheaper since theres been intakes for years both oem and aftermarket that are carb.

 

[rebelboy194]

I have all the parts for a mild gt40p build on my 302. I knocked the engine stand over and ruined the block(It was a old 3 wheel engine stand) I can either get another 302 block that's good for 200 or a 351 thats good for 200. I get the 302 I can put the motor back in my car, but if I get the 351 then I still have to get all the parts that I need to put the motor in the car. I can get the 302 throw it in the car and start buying the parts to build me a 347 and put down more pwer than the 351.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I'm not saying to source a s351 that would be nuts.(only 250 made) What i am saying is ford built the s351 with FORD parts that they used on many other production vehicles....You can use a gt40 351 lower and any cobra/gt40 upper. There's even a company that makes spacer adapters to install a 302 intake lower in a 351.

Most of those Ford parts won't work for a Fox body. All the brackets are Fox specific and the only other Ford parts that got the same parts as the S351 was the 1st Gen Lightning, the Cobra R and the '93 Cobra. Not exactly an abundance of any of them running around. As far as finding a 351W lower for the GT40 used....I don't know where you're from, but around here they're as rare as rocking horse ....and people that have them know this. Any ones I've ever seen sold go for a mint.

The OP says his 302 was on a stand and fell over. So at this point he was planning to install some kind of motor. And judging on the duration of this thread alone its already been longer than a weekend project already. Why not just put the 351 he has on that stand.

Sure....building the 351W is an option....but he's still going to need all those swap parts to get it in there. Not unfeasible, but it's going to add to the cost.

GearBanger Have you even did a 351 swap before?

In a Mustang....no. Did assist with a 460 swap in one once and did a few 302W/351W swaps in both a Rangers, Bronco II's and even a Ford Pinto once. Let me tell ya....not one of them were straight forward.

Remember ford installed 351's in CARS like the late 70's early 80's LTD. The parts are out there. Only time it gets expensive to do a basic swap is if you want EFI but were talking $500 for a trickflow 351 efi intake upper and lower. Carbed would be cheaper since theres been intakes for years both oem and aftermarket that are carb.

Agree...the parts are out there, but they're starting to get scarce. Ford hasn't put a 351W in an Crown Vic/LTD since the mid-80's and at that point only the Police Crusiers got them. Even still....they made less than 200hp and the block, crank and rods about the only things worth while salvaging from them. Still though, it's a start. But it's not a strait swap. The Panther platform had a little more room to work with than the Fox an other parts will need to be sourced. There will be a lot of mixing and match and trial and error if he wants to go the cheapest route and use junk yard parts.

And I'll assume you're finding the Trick Flow intake used? I ask, because the cheapest I've found them new is still $700+. And yes, carb’d intakes and available and even plentiful, but now you're asking him to not only make compromises by backwards converting to a carbeurator, but adding to the over all cost because./...well, he's now got to covert backwards from fuel injection to a carb. Aside from the lousy mileage and spotty drivability, he's probably going to spend more time and money sourcing the parts and backwards converting than he would had he just pony'd up the cash for the EFI intake in the first place?

IMO...a 351W conversion shouldn't even be a consideration unless one plans to utilize the displacement potential of the larger block and build themselves a stroker, or becase they plan on exceeding the strength limits of the 302W block. Otherwise....there's really nothing to be gained by the swap other than the ability to tell people you've done it?

 

[95Vert383AOD]

View attachment 71555

Guess which motor is the 351? Same car BTW!!!! Lincoln Mark 7's have the same space under the hood. Its just the body thats a bit longer.



Fox Brackets work on a 351. No Modification. I actually have FOX brackets on my 351 in my 1995 mustang as we speak.

gt40's are rare...sometimes you see them on Ebay for $250...The internet is a glorious thing. Theres also adapter plates. Or you can find a trickflow setup used for under $500 But we don't even know if he wants to EFI this thing.

The swap parts are cheap junk yard parts. Only part you wont be able to find in a JY is an EFI 351 intake. Everything else works. Technically the only custom swap item is the headers.....MAC has 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 shorties reasonably priced.

You were involved in some involved swaps. In a mustang it is VERY straight forward. Even the motor mounts line up perfectly.

I dont know about how difficult things are up there (Canada) or how plentiful parts are but down here in the states i did a 351 swap in my backyard no garage 2 times. Never did it before.


I recommend you do some GOOGLING and see the success others have had dropping a 351 in. Based on a good portion of your answers i could tell that you PERSONALLY have never done this swap. (this is why i asked a question i knew the answer to) A 351 will easily fit in ANY fox platform. This is a 351W not a 351M.

Did a 351 do something bad to your family? I'm sorry but not every 351 will give you swap nightmares. They're actually nice. They also make getting to the lower bolt on the thermostat a breeze because its no longer hiding behind the water pump.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Perhaps I wasn't clear earlier.....I didn't say it was a hard swap, or that it was a tight fit. I said it wasn't a straight swap. Swap parts are needed and they aren't free or something you can just rip over to Pep Boys to get.

What purpose was showing me the Lincoln Mark VII? Are you trying to flex your man meat to me by showing me your awesome swap skills or something? You brought up the LTD previously, which is Panther based, not Fox. The Mark VII is a Fox, just like the Mustang....but they never came with a 351W either. You're in the same boat gathering swap parts there too.

And thanks for letting me in on this whole Google thing. I had no idea it existed. We don't get that sorta stuff way up here in Canada, since our igloo's aren't equipped with internet service. I took your advice though and did a quick search looking for a GT40 351W intake. I found two current intakes for sale. Out of 4-pages on Ebay, there were only 2-available. They ranged from $335-$550 after shipping...and that was for the lower only!?!. I could nearly buy a complete legitimate Cobra upper and lower intake or 3 complete used Explorer intakes for the lower of those two prices.

I have nothing against 351W's. But like I said before, doing the swap shouldn't even be a consideration unless one plans to utilize the displacement potential of the larger block by building themselves a stroker, or because they plan on exceeding the strength limits of the 302W block. They're not cost effective for any other purpose.

 

[rebelboy194]

So several of you guys will be happy to know that I picked up the 302 this past weekend. The bad part is, I'm haveing surgery in the morning and will be immobile for 6 weeks. Thanks ya'll for all the good info.

 

[88LX5.Oh]

Get well soon!

 

[rebelboy194]

Thank you very much.

 

[ateyfivegeetee]

alright cmom i gotta ask... how did you knock over an engine stand?? did u hit it with a truck??

 

[rebelboy194]

Nope, I had it mounted on a three wheeled engine stand, and I rolled it out of my storage closet which has a 2 inch drop at the door. I rolled the front wheel off and set it down, and then rolled the two rear wheels up to the ledge and reached around to pick it up. When I picked it up it rolled forward and one wheel fell off and over when the engine.