Front End And Disc Brakes

[Andrew La Roche]

I have a 67 Mustang Coupe with a 68 302 engine, drum brakes and power steering (not rack and pinion) and I am looking to redo the front end. It seems that there are a lot of Mustang II kits available, but I am looking for some recommendations. Hoping to not break the bank on this, but I do want quality. I really need to get a rack and pinion setup, disc brakes (preferred all the way around). Would consider redoing the suspension also if needed or reasonably priced.

If you have any other questions about the car, please let me know. I am really hoping to get this figured out soon and could value some of your opinions.

 

[Andrew La Roche]

I possibly should note, although may not matter, the power steering that the car currently has was on it when I purchased it. Leaks regularly, and I have a lot of slop in my steering, which is why I feel I really need to do this. I think the slop might be because the car didn't come with this option originally, not sure though. Either way, I just don't completely feel safe with the way it is and want to have a tight steering wheel.

 

[jlangholzj]

I possibly should note, although may not matter, the power steering that the car currently has was on it when I purchased it. Leaks regularly, and I have a lot of slop in my steering, which is why I feel I really need to do this. I think the slop might be because the car didn't come with this option originally, not sure though. Either way, I just don't completely feel safe with the way it is and want to have a tight steering wheel.

rebuild your PS ram and the control valve for it. Just did that with mine and its a world of difference. also if you want disks you can do a granada swap for the front and I'm sure there's a similar swap for the rear somwhere. Also if you put an 8.8" rear in, you'd have disks. All that would be additionally required is the MC to go with having disks all the way around.

 

[Andrew La Roche]

I was trying to find a granada or mustang II in my area but havent been lucky with anything decent. I should have mentioned that. Currently I figure I will have to order something, and might not be a bad choice anyway as it would then hopefully be a plug and play setup, wont have to disassemble and blast/paint up everything. Unless anyone knows of a decent front end around southeastern Wisconsin!

 

[Total Control Products]

We carry Wilwood brakes. Assuming you have a 15" or larger wheel, we can set you up with a full manual brake system that works with the stock dual-chamber master cylinder. Front rotors would be 11" and rears would be 12.19. Those are plain vented rotors, cross drilled is available too. Four piston Dynalite calipers. Rears can be equipped with an internal parking brake. The 11" front kit is a newer design and maintains the factory hub width.

In my opinion, stay away from anything Mustang II unless your car was built in the 40s. Last time I checked, the M-II was not in the list of top 500 handling cars of all time.

By the way, the Granada spindle requires different tie-rods and may adversely affect the handling if you have stock suspension. There are WAY more brake options these days for the 68 Mustang V8 spindle. It's surprising how simple and economical it really is to go with a quality brake system.

Click HERE for details on front kits and HERE for details on rear kits. Give me a call at extension 247 if you have questions, I'm hapy to help!

 

[other_shoe]

I thought about getting a rack and pinion for a long time -- primarily because I didn't think the stock system could be made acceptable -- but for a number of reasons (money and have some of the work done by a shop) I ended up buying a quality rebuilt ram, valve, and steering box. It's like a completely different car now. I worked with Chockostang, but have also corresponded with Stanger. Both are knowledgeable and committed to quality.

 

[bartl]

Keep your existing suspension. Do the 1" Arning drop on your upper control arms, replace the spring perches with roller perches and go to strut rods with a heim end. Replace your existing steering box with a new Borgeson integral power steering box and make sure the rest of your suspension components are up to snuff. There are also some nice rollerized lower control arm bushings available.

Brakes.....find a kit that uses the '65-67 style Kelsey Hayes 4-piston calipers. They will work with your existing spindles but you will need a new master cylinder for disc/drum or disc/disc should you go that route. There are a number of rear disc kits out there. Personally, I don't think rear disc get you anything more than the bling of having them.

 

[67rcks]

Unless you drive interstate 130-150 mph IMO you won't feel a difference between well-tuned P/S and r&p.
For front brakes, there are a few solutions that use OE parts (e.g. PBR calipers, cobra, granada)

 

[Andrew La Roche]

I was just figuring, with the cost of some of the power steering kits, wouldn't it be better to just get a rack and pinion? I looked at the Borgeson integral power steering box, and I have some questions. Again, I have a 67 Mustang, didn't originally have power steering. My engine is a '68 302, and I am guessing they took the power steering from the '68 and put it on this car. When I look at the kits on the Borgenson website, I do not see an option for a '67, they have 65-66 and 68-70. So I do not know if this is supposed to be an option or even installed on this car. Maybe the slop in my steering is because this isn't supposed to be on my car? I just do not know how close the setup is between '67 and '68, and it confuses me why they do not list an option for '67.

 

[Rusty67]

First question to ask on this is, what is your budget for each project ?

Secondly, why not just throw the power steering in the trash and go manual ? If you want to keep the power steering that is fine too but I don't see a reason to go with R&P.

The 67 had a solid steering shaft and the 68 had a collapsable shaft.

 

[Andrew La Roche]

budget is loose, as I am working on selling a few things to make this happen. Honestly I have seen prices all over for what this could cost, so I don't even know what to expect. Not necessarily looking for the cheapest option, I want what would be the best option for a street car. I don't want to do anything just because. I should also state, it is not like I have 8 grand to drop on this. I was hoping to keep everything within 1-2 grand. But don't know if that is possible.

How would I tell if I have the solid steering from my 67 or if they also switched to the 68 collapsible shaft?

And also, I was figuring to keep power steering as I thought it would be nicer to drive. Have never drove a manual steering car, don't know how hard that is to steer compared to power.

 

[Rusty67]

At a dead stop it is a bit tough, above 2 miles and hour no big deal. At speed, easier to drive.

I believe the 68 column has a bearing support at the firewall instead of just a gasket but its been a long time since I compaired the two.

No ball park on the budget ? You can go anywhere from 700 for the front to 3000 or more.... and that is without brakes.

 

[horseballz]

Andrew La Roche,
There are several potential downsides of a rack an pinion conversion:
>Many or most R&P setups give a wider maximum turning radius
>Most cause exhaust header clearance issues, seriously limiting your choice of headers
>Many R&P create a bump steer problem
>Some setups have poor mounting systems.
>High price for the better setups

As far as the Borgeson box:

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catal...ersion_Box_Components-orderby_0-p-1-c-60.html

They list 2 different boxes for 1967, as it was a transition year for the pitman arms. If I recall, there may have been differences in the steering column from early to late 67 as well. For these reasons, they don't list the "kits" for 67, but have all the parts for whichever 67 setup you currently have. From what you have said, it sounds as though your setup possibly came from a 68. If this is the case we need to help you determine if they used the 68 box and possibly column as well. Once you know what you have, calling Borgeson for the "kit" is a piece of cake. Many folks have had good luck using their original pump setup and simply installing the box.

As for brakes, CSRP has a pretty wide variety of reasonably priced options:

http://www.discbrakeswap.com/

I have installed several of their various kits and found them to be absolutely complete, easy to istall and they provide excellent customer service/product support.
HTH,
Gene

 

[Andrew La Roche]

I had said $1-2k, I was figuring that this may not include brakes. But if it did include brakes, I was hoping to be within $2-3k. Again, depends on what it needs. Just looking for a nice setup, nothing to take to the track, just a nice street car. If that option ends up being $4k, that is ok to me, just might have to be a next winter project instead of right now.

I really appreciate all of this information. Already heard of some places/products that I didn't know about.

 

[horseballz]

One easy way to tell if your column is 67 or 68 is to look at where the steering shaft attaches to the steering box. If the shaft appears to be part of the box it is the older and if it has a rag joint, like this:

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Rag_Joint_11_1636_X_3_436-p-581.html

it is likely a 68 or later box and column. You still need to measure the pitman arm shaft to determine if it's 1" or 1-1/8" as a lot can have happened/been swapped in the 45 years since that car left the factory. Personally, I would get a 1-1/8" pitman arm from Borgeson for $54 and use a manual steering centerlink/drag link as opposed to using their adapter to power steering linkage. While I've not heard any serious problems using the adapter, it just seems a bit like jerry rigging to me.
HTH,
Gene

 

[horseballz]

If you go with the Borgeson setup and a brake kit from CSRP you'd likely come in between $1K-ish for basic and $2K-ish if you replace all tie rod ends, ball joints, etc. and you could likely do it in a weekend. While it's apart is the perfect time to rebuild/upgrade ALL front suspension and steering parts. Most upgraded replacement parts only cost a little more than stock type stuff. You can spend a pile of $$$$ on upgrades, if you want, or you can simply put better than OEM replacements on. One definite upgrade is rollerized spring perches, you can either buy them for about $180 or rollerize your old ones (if you can weld or have a buddy who can) for about $60:

http://dazed.home.bresnan.net/test

The sky is the limit when it comes to suspension, but NOW is the time to plan and do it all at once so that all the parts play well together. I personally like this setup (New Kit #6770TCA-ULK-S) for the suspension:

http://www.classicperform.com/NewProducts/2006/NewFiles/NovaSubFrame.htm

add a pair of roller perches and you're golden.
To sum up what I think would be a good plan:
1> Borgeson box with your existing pump with manual steering center link and pitman arm $800-ish. Have your hoses made locally.
2> All new tie rod ends and idler arm $150-ish
3> Roller spring perches $60-$190
4> CPP setup $689
5> CSRP Brake swap kit #2511 or #1411 $524
This puts you in the $2300-$2500 ballpark (depending on shipping) and leaves you with EVERYTHING in the front end new and upgraded, except for the springs and shocks AND disc brakes. You would likely not have to touch anything up front for many years and 50K + miles, except brake pads! If you opt not to use the CPP suspension kit, you could knock MAYBE $300 of the overall price, as you would still likely need to do upper & lower control arms or bushings, shafts and ball joints, strut rod bushings, etc. to have it all new. The problem with the OEM style stuff is that most replacement pieces are JUNK! For example, I spent the extra $$$ for supposedly better upper control arms with shafts and ball joints and after only 11K miles the shafts are getting loose already!
Sorry For The Long Post,
Gene

 

[Rusty67]

I'm also a fan of the CPP lower setup.

 

[67rcks]

My experience is somewhat different....

>Many or most R&P setups give a wider maximum turning radius
Pick r&p based on J-car rack, you won't notice difference in turning radius, if you don't believe this go to a wreck yard and measure the spindle arm length e.g. on 96 pontiac grand am, compare it with mustang

>Most cause exhaust header clearance issues, seriously limiting your choice of headers
You should't have problems with short-to-medium length headers, even long-tube if you use TCP rack that mounts instead of cross-member.

>Many R&P create a bump steer problem
In fact, centerlink used in r&p is usually placed higher than stock centerlink (there is nearly 2" space below oil pan in stock setup). Moving centerlink upwards always reduces bumpsteer yet still some bumpsteer will always be present due to upper A arm.

>Some setups have poor mounting systems.
IMO the mounting is light yet adequate. No different than you can see on modern cars.

>High price for the better setups
True, way over-prized for what you get.

Go with p/s instead of manual, it will allow you e.g. making multiple turns with one hand when e.g. accelerating from an intersection, you can hardly do this with manual steering. + easier parking maneuvers, more precise steering with r&p

 

[Total Control Products]

There are several potential downsides of a rack an pinion conversion:
>Many or most R&P setups give a wider maximum turning radius
>Most cause exhaust header clearance issues, seriously limiting your choice of headers
>Many R&P create a bump steer problem
>Some setups have poor mounting systems.
>High price for the better setups

Agreed, the key words being 'most' and 'many.'

- Our power and manual racks maintain the factory turning radius while also decreasing the number of turns lock to lock.
- As far as we are aware, our rack clears everything except Hooker Super Comp 1-3/4" long tubes.
- Our rack maintains the stock inner tie rod position and does not affect bumpsteer.
- Our rack utilitizes factory mounting points and adds rigidity to the front chassis.
- Yes, you're going to pay more for our system than a stocker. Unfortunately that's the price of higher technology and improved performance.

All that said, our rack and pinion conversion would eat up a pretty good chunk of your budget. I personally would stick with a Borgeson quick ratio power box for your application and budget. I can do Wilwood brakes for less than $700 on the front and they will work with your stock dual chamber m/c, no booster required, 15" or larger wheels. A pair of TCP strut rods goes for $469. Those two components alone will make a huge difference in your car's handling and safety without breaking the bank.

 

[Andrew La Roche]

Ok, I think I am going to look into the Borgeson box. Hoping calling them they will be able to help me sort out exactly what I need from them. Sounds like most people recommend them, and as even TCP said, for my budget and application it would probably be best. I am guessing for the tie rod ends and ball joints I should just go to my local store and buy them? Or does anyone recommend a particular brand/site to order from?

For the brakes, I know Wilwood is considered awesome, but wondering if I need to spend even that little extra, compared to something like CSRP. And when it would come time to replace the brake pads, can I still go to my local shop and get some ceramic pads, or do I need to order Wilwood?

I am still up in the air how much of the rest I should do. I would like to upgrade the suspension to freshen up how the car rides. horseballz mentioned CPP and DazeCars, anyone else have recommendations on where to get these parts?