Sold The '04 Vortech Awaiting Delivery Of A '13 Gt W/ Track Pack... 2011-2013 Questions

[04torktech]

So about 6 weeks ago I sold my 2004 Supercharged GT which made 420rwhp and 408 ft lbs and traded up to a brand new 5.0. Since they didn't have exactly what I wanted (more of the go less of the show) on the lot I opted to order. I was supposed to take delivery 11/6 but with the recent Hurrican on the east coast it was delayed to the 16th. Hopefully that is a long estimate and I will recieve it sooner. With that being said I am very familiar with the 99-04 but still getting acquainted with the 4V 5.0 so I have a few questions.

How common are transmission issues after 2 years of the Chinese MT82? I doubled the HP output of my '04 (albeit didn't make nearly as much stock) and had no problems with my Tremec 3650 w/ MGW short throw.

Anyone from PA deal with long tubes and inspection? I ran full exhaust (LT off road x etc.) on the '04 in Delaware and had no issues passing since I wasn't throwing a CEL. Hopefully LT won't void the warranty but I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone running Kooks LT or American Racing and have any good/bad feedback?

Thanks again. A little more information on the '13... GT premium package (400A), Track Pack, Recaro Seats, Shaker Pro (a little extra boom in the trunk)

 

[Noobz347]

I'm not sure that running long tubes on an otherwise stock Coyote is going to gain you much. From what I've heard/read, Ford did a pretty damned good job in matching the OEM exhaust to the motor.

With how stingy they've been about warranty invalidation etc., I'm also not sure that adding a tune (that a Ford service center hasn't installed) is such a hot idea these days either.

Have you talked to the service center at all about what they have available?

 

[04torktech]

I'm not sure that running long tubes on an otherwise stock Coyote is going to gain you much. From what I've heard/read, Ford did a pretty damned good job in matching the OEM exhaust to the motor.

With how stingy they've been about warranty invalidation etc., I'm also not sure that adding a tune (that a Ford service center hasn't installed) is such a hot idea these days either.

Have you talked to the service center at all about what they have available?

Well here's the plan. I would say in general your average owner does some basic performance upgrades (CAI, catback, tune, TB, etc.) and a few cosmetic ones. Basic bolt ons are all fine and good but I want to get a lot more out of this car and I don't want to install stuff that I will need to just take off in the future. Aside from running a turbo set up the LT will pay off big dividends when forced induction is added (which I plan to do in the future). While I don't want to void my warranty right out of the box I do want to start getting the car ready for the bigger stuff to come. My '04 with full exhaust and a Vortech at ~11.5-12psi saw significant gains over friends' cars without full exhaust. While I do know that Ford now uses a tubular style "manifold" I have done some research and spoke with my tuner and nothing beats the top end flow of long tubes. You are completely correct though I will need to speak with the dealer in more detail. I know at some point I will void the warranty... I didn't buy the car to baby it and leave it stock but I would like to make sure some of the bugs are out before I go shooting myself in the foot so to speak. The whole situation is a gamble because while you could get a SC installed from Ford it would cost you an arm and a leg and make less power by far then with an aftermarket dyno tune. Finally, I don't like the idea of anyone else wrenching on my car. I like knowing what I did, how I did it, etc.

 

[Noobz347]

I think it was Steeda that posted that kit that's supposed to keep the #8 cylinder from cooking. Might want to look into that before getting too head long into breaking it.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

From what I hear, the "legitimate" warranty issues with the Chinese built transmission are few and far between. IMO, a sheer number of claimed issues buzzing around the internet are mostly sour grapes exaggerations made by nay sayers simply because the trans was built off shore. I've never met a single person yet who's had a problem with one. Take that for what it's worth.

I'm with Noobz on the LT's. At this stage, you'll get more out of a CAI and tune than you will out of headers. I also agree that once you step over the N/A threshold, into the forced induction territory, long tubes will make themselves known.

Do you plan on blowing the car right away, or are you planning on waiting till the warranty expires? Why not start stockpiling parts now, so they're ready to do all at once when you bolt the huffier on?

 

[04torktech]

Yea the #'s 2 and 8 cylinder problems scare me. A friend of a friend works for Ford and I need to speak with him to get some more information on the issue. As far as I know Ford did away with the oil jet piston coolers for '13 which definitely won't help the issue. I don't plan on throwing a ton of parts at it right away so stock piling parts (if I can find some deals isn't a bad option either). A tuner that I have had very good luck with (Matt @ Performance Evolution in Smyrna, DE) has had a fair amount of Mustangs making 650rwhp safely. From my understanding it's the oil pump gear set that poses an issue (above 600rwhp)but billet replacements seem to do the trick. I am getting ahead of myself though... I plan on breaking the car in gently and not beating the piss out of it daily. I take very good care of what I own and have a lot of respect for my vehicles. That being said I have a hard time justifying buying a couple hundred dollar CAI which will need to be yanked off if I install a blower. Buying some used bolt on parts could definitely be an option and I have had luck selling parts on forums, craigslist, and Ebay in the past. I understand where you both are coming from and know that there are better alternatives to long tubes (now at least) but I plan on having the car for a while and I see the value down the road. Unfortunately these 4V's don't sound anywhere as good IMO as their older 2V brothers :/

 

[joe_momma]

I'd talk to my service center guy, and try to feel him out for what they would be "comfortable" with. Some are getting warranties voided over non-Ford tunes, or even non-Ford installed parts like CAI, etc when issues pop up (#8 cylinder).

 

[04torktech]

I'd talk to my service center guy, and try to feel him out for what they would be "comfortable" with. Some are getting warranties voided over non-Ford tunes, or even non-Ford installed parts like CAI, etc when issues pop up (#8 cylinder).

I did some more research and spoke with my tuner about the overheating cylinder issues which lead to ring failure, scoring of the cylinder walls, and invetibaly cancelling the extension you were planning on putting on your house hah. My initial thoughts were that it was either a cooling issue or a lean condition and the latter was confirmed correct. My tuner is a straight shooter, deals solely with Fords, and is extremely knowledgeable in more then just turning a wrench. I am a mechanical engineer and this guy exhibits more engineering knowledge of the interworkings of an engine then just the typical gearhead which is a valuable resource. Anyways I was speaking to him on the issue since he feels 650rwhp with his tune is the maximum safe amount with stock interals (and an upgraded oil pump gear set). This was his response to the issue and what is the cause in most cases. I think it has a lot to do with tuners applying knowledge of previous gen mustang motors to the new one without doing their homework... This is the short answer.

"The problem you speak of was indeed a real issue early on with these engines. The #1 contributing factor however was the fault of tuners. The factory commanded A/F ratio for the engine was 12.2:1. In the past, that was rich for a NA engine, so tuners started to lean out those mixtures and they indeed picked up horsepower, but at a cost. Engine damage was occuring as the 11:1 CR engine needed more fuel to cool the parts. Normally extended lean conditions on a low CR engine don't cause damage but at 11:1, that isn't the case. Maintaning a 12.2:1 AF ratio keeps things in check, and engine failure isn't a problem."

 

[Noobz347]

"The problem you speak of was indeed a real issue early on with these engines. The #1 contributing factor however was the fault of tuners. The factory commanded A/F ratio for the engine was 12.2:1. In the past, that was rich for a NA engine, so tuners started to lean out those mixtures and they indeed picked up horsepower, but at a cost. Engine damage was occuring as the 11:1 CR engine needed more fuel to cool the parts. Normally extended lean conditions on a low CR engine don't cause damage but at 11:1, that isn't the case. Maintaning a 12.2:1 AF ratio keeps things in check, and engine failure isn't a problem."

Nice... Did he have any explanation for coolant cross-over kits that you see here and there? Is there anything to them or are they just snake oil?

 

[04torktech]

Nice... Did he have any explanation for coolant cross-over kits that you see here and there? Is there anything to them or are they just snake oil?

I didn't ask him. In my initial email I asked whether it was a coolant issue or a lean condition. I am assuming (but I have no proof) that while it couldn't hurt this is a fueling issue. To an extent an engine will make more power running leaner then 14.7:1 AFR. For emissions the engine will shoot for 14:7 outside of WOT. Once you lay the hammer down the engine stops correcting for that reason and goes to a set AFR (to avoid incorrectly correcting too lean or rich). In the case of my old 2V the AFR was set to 11.8 to make power at WOT. I guess tuners were leaning the mixture out further and this was getting results but cylinder temps were going up as well. As I am sure a lot of you know that can lead to pre-ignition or detonation which on the 2V's would ruin rods and pistons. Moral of the story is to get a dyno tune by a reputable tuner otherwise it appears we have found one of the weak links on this engine if you run too lean. It is a shame they got rid of those oil squirters though.

 

[Noobz347]

I didn't ask him. In my initial email I asked whether it was a coolant issue or a lean condition. I am assuming (but I have no proof) that while it couldn't hurt this is a fueling issue. To an extent an engine will make more power running leaner then 14.7:1 AFR. For emissions the engine will shoot for 14:7 outside of WOT. Once you lay the hammer down the engine stops correcting for that reason and goes to a set AFR (to avoid incorrectly correcting too lean or rich). In the case of my old 2V the AFR was set to 11.8 to make power at WOT. I guess tuners were leaning the mixture out further and this was getting results but cylinder temps were going up as well. As I am sure a lot of you know that can lead to pre-ignition or detonation which on the 2V's would ruin rods and pistons. Moral of the story is to get a dyno tune by a reputable tuner otherwise it appears we have found one of the weak links on this engine if you run too lean. It is a shame they got rid of those oil squirters though.

It makes sense considering all the crying from people who have burned a cylinder. So far, it's been folks that have run some Brand X, out-of-the-box tune and ended up chit creek with no paddle (or warranty).

It's got me thinking though, that this thing should help stave off those aggressive tunes and provide an additional margin of safety for folks (like yourself) who intend to do the right thing and have the car professionally tuned!

Edit: I found the kit I was thinking of. It's MMR, not Steeda, who makes the thing.

MMR 2011-2013 5.0 Head Cooling Mod

MMR's cooling head mod is designed to help eliminate hotspots in the #8 cylinder by promoting coolant flow around cylinder # 8 - the cylinder long known to be the first to detonate with aggressive naturally aspirated tunes and forced induction. Dont fall victim to this failure, protect your investment with this simple, professional kit. Installation requires tapping out the factory freeze plugs (very easy) and simply installing the MMR kit. Kit is sealed with high grade O rings (included). Socketless hose does not require hose clamps for simple push on installation. Inlcudes all parts shown, no other parts required. Fits all Mustang, BOSS and F150 with 5.0 TiVCT engine. Billet Alloy construction. This should be the first step in modifying your 5.0 , 100% USA MADE by MMR