Desperately Need 5.0 Help!!

T

tmhb6

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Dec 22, 2012
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#1
I am working on my 66 mustang with a 5.0 swapped from a 89 Lincoln MarkVII. I bought the Lincoln as a complete good running car and it already had explorer heads, intake, and injectors installed. Now that the engine is installed in the mustang I cant get it to run correctly. The engine is hard to start and once it does finally start, it misses and dies when idling. It does drive but has a bad miss/backfiring problem under load.

Things I have done to try to fix it-
1) Converted the speed density to a mass air setup- ran slightly better afterwards but still far from good
2)New fuel pump-no change seen
3)Set timing to 10deg.- no change (seems to idle better with more timing)
4)Ran the KOEO test and got the following codes: 31, 67, 81, 82 ,85 ,84, 14, 31. These codes are mostly due to me not having any of the emissions stuff hooked up, but from what I have read this should not cause the problems I am seeing.
5) I tried to run the KOER test but the engine wont idle long enough to do the test.

Here is a video of it running:

Any help/advice will be greatly apreciated, I've spent many discouraging hours over the last couple of months trying to fix it with no results. I will gladly paypal $20 to whoever can help me fix the problem.
 

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#4
check the TFI/Distributor. I once bought a new unit that had a bad pick up out of the box and caused all sorts of problems.
Are you running an ignition box or the stock set up?
 
#6
tfi can be taken to the parts store and tested. have them test it a few times. sometimes a bad one will test good at first and then fail as it warms up.
 
#8
If you're doing abbreviated miss-testing (pulling plug wires one at a time), if you find a non-contributing cylinder, also ensure the plug is not damaged or doesn't have a piece of carbon biased across the electrode and ground strap.
 
#9
I rechecked the firing order and everything is good. I then did the abbreviated miss-testing (pulling plug wires one at a time) and it seemed pulling wire #8 made less of a difference to how the motor ran. I switched out the plug wire to that cylinder with a old plug wire I had laying around. After taking the car around the block, it seems to be running little stronger but still missing/backfiring. Im going to go get a new set of plug wires from the store and see if that helps.
 
#10
I would do a quick compression test and plug-inspection on the #8 cylinder. If it was just a wire issue, the cylinder you swapped the #8 wire to should have had a diminished contribution (and #8 would have been really purring).
Breaking a plug during a motor swap (cracked porcelain tower) is not out of the question - if you're at the parts store anyhow, I'd grab another Autolite 25 (or whatever you run) for a buck or two, just to try and rule that out.
 
#11
The 89 Lincoln MarkVII shares the same firing order with the 5.0 Mustang. It is different from the regualr 5.0 firing order.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
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Make sure you have a 5.0 Mustang computer, because if you don't the firing order is different.

Cylinder balance test: use this to find dead or weak cylinders:

Revised 16-Oct-2011 to add O2 sensor harness warnings

The Mass Air computers from 89-93 are interchangeable with a few exceptions. Just be sure you use the MAF & MAF sensor from the same series computer. The auto transmission computers use a different start circuit than the manual computers. You can use an auto trans computer in a 5 speed car with no problems or changes. I have done it in my original 89 Mustang GT, and I know it works OK. I would recommend avoiding using a 5 speed computer in an auto trans car due to the possibility of damaging the computer’ internal signal ground circuitry.

The odd duck is the 93 Cobra computer, labeled X3Z which is internally calibrated for 24 lb injectors. Use the MAF & MAF sensor from the X3Z computer to avoid problems with the computer's internal calibration. Try and avoid the 93 Cobra computer if you can.

Some cautions about O2 Sensor harnesses need to be observed to avoid damage to the computer.
Only run a 5 speed trans O2 harness with an A9L. Do not run an Auto O2 sensor harness with an A9L. Doing so will damage the computer’s internal signal ground.
Only run an Auto trans O2 sensor harness with an A9P in a car that has an Auto trans. Using a 5 speed trans O2 sensor harness with an Auto trans will cause no crank problems.
See http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1094179-oxygen-sensor- harnesses-manual-auto-differences-year-differences.html for more O2 sensor wiring harness info
If you have a damaged computer with signal ground problems, See http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/749974-computer-issue.html#post7490537 for Joel5.0’s fix to the computer internal signal ground.

All the following are mass air unless they say Speed Density
8LD - MANUAL 88 5.0L Mustang Mass Air - California
8LF - Auto 88 5.0L Mustang Mass Air- California
8LG - Auto 88 5.0L Mustang Mass Air- California
A9L - 89-93 5.0L Mustang 5-spd Mass Air
A3M - 93 5.0L Mustang 5-spd Mass Air
A3M1 - 93 5.0L Mustang 5-spd Mass Air
X3Z - 93 5.0L Cobra 5-spd Mass Air internally calibrated for 24 lb injector
A9P - 89-93 5.0L Mustang Auto Mass Air
A9S - 88-93 5.0L Mustang California Mass Air
C3W - 89-93 5.0L Mustang Auto
DA1 - 87 5.0L Mustang 5-spd Speed Density
J4J1 - 94-95 5.0L SVT Cobra 5-spd
T4M0 - 94-95 5.0L GT Vert 5-spd
U4P0 - 94-95 5.0L GT Auto
W4H0 - 94-95 5.0L GT
ZA0 - 95 Cobra R
D9S - 88 Lincoln LSC Speed Density

See http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=17 for more computer types




There is a better way to do a cylinder balance test: it is much more accurate that pulling spark plug wires off.

Cylinder balance test: use this to find dead or weak cylinders:

Revised 25 March 2012 to add necessity allowing the KOEO tests to finish before starting the engine and the need for a properly functioning IAB/IAC to run the cylinder balance test.

The computer has a cylinder balance test that helps locate cylinders with low power output. You’ll need to dump the codes out of the computer and make sure that you have the A/C off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission in neutral. Fail to do this and you can’t do the engine running dump codes test that allows you to do the cylinder balance test.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Be sure to turn off the A/C clutch depressed to the floor, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.


Here's how to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Underhoodpictures007-01.jpg


Underhoodpictures010.jpg


If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and drivability problems

Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Cylinder balance test

If you have idle or IAC/IAB problems and the engine will not idle on its own without mechanically adjusting the base idle speed above 625-750 RPM, this test will fail with random cylinders pointed out every time it runs. The IAC/IAB must be capable of controlling the engine speed to run in the 1400-1600 RPM range. Playing with the base idle speed by adjusting it upwards will not work, the computer has to be able to control the engine speed using the IAC/IAB.

Warm the car's engine up to normal operating temperature. Use a jumper wire or paper clip to put the computer into test mode. Let it finish the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) code dump. Start the engine and let it go through the normal diagnostic tests, then quickly press the throttle to the floor. Remember to keep the clutch pedal (5 speed) depressed to the floor during the test. The engine RPM should exceed 2500 RPM's for a brief second. The engine RPM's will increase to about 1450-1600 RPM and hold steady. The engine will shut off power to each injector, one at a time. When it has sequenced through all 8 injectors, it will flash 9 for everything OK, or the number of the failing cylinder such as 2 for cylinder #2. Quickly pressing the throttle again up to 2500 RPM’s will cause the test to re-run with smaller qualifying figures.
Do it a third time, and if the same cylinder shows up, the cylinder is weak and isn’t putting out power like it should. See the Chilton’s Shop manual for the complete test procedure


Do a compression test on all the cylinders.
Take special note of any cylinder that shows up as weak in the cylinder balance test. Low compression on one of these cylinders rules out the injectors as being the most likely cause of the problem. Look at cylinders that fail the cylinder balance test but have good compression. These cylinders either have a bad injector, bad spark plug or spark plug wire. Move the wire and then the spark plug to another cylinder and run the cylinder balance test again. If it follows the moved wire or spark plug, you have found the problem. If the same cylinder fails the test again, the injector is bad. If different cylinders fail the cylinder balance test, you have ignition problems or wiring problems in the 10 pin black & white electrical connectors located by the EGR.

How to do a compression test:
Only use a compression tester with a screw in adapter for the spark plug hole. The other type leaks too much to get an accurate reading. Your local auto parts store may have a compression tester to rent. If you do mechanic work on your own car on a regular basis, it would be a good tool to add to your collection.

With the engine warmed up, remove all spark plugs and prop the throttle wide open, crank the engine until it the gage reading stops increasing. On a cold engine, it will be hard to tell what's good & what's not. Some of the recent posts have numbers ranging from 140-170 psi. If the compression is low, squirt some oil in the cylinder and do it again – if it comes up, the rings are worn. There should be no more than 10% difference between cylinders. Use a blow down leak test (puts compressed air inside cylinders) on cylinders that have more than 10% difference.

See the link to my site for details on how to build your own blow down type compression tester.
 
#12
I installed new wires and a new spark plug in the #8 cylinder. Still not running correctly. I am going try to run the KOER test. Here is a quick video where you can hear the backfiring under load

 
#13
The spark plug wire removal test is good, but I have found since working with EFI that it's good to repeat the test with the injectors.
Sometimes shutting down the spark plug on a cylinder works best, but other times pulling the injector wires works better.

Just like you swapped plugs and wires between cylinders, sometimes you need to swap injectors between cylinders.
I have found weak injectors this way...

Just a tip...

When you converted to MAF, did you then convert the MAP sensor to BARO configuration?
Or did you continue to apply manifold vacuum to the MAP?
 
#14
Update: I switched the #8 and #1 fuel injectors and the missfire seemed to switch also. I got a new fuel injector and drove it around the block again. It ran much better but still stumbles under load. Seems like maybe I have clogged injectors. Anybody know a good way to unclog them? I dont think a bottle of injector cleaner is going to do the job
 
#15
Do you have an air cleaner element that you oil (K&N style)? If so , clean the MAF element with some electronic spray cleaner. A dirty MAF element will cause some of the same type of problems you are experiencing.
 
#18
Boydster said:
I'd be going after that code 14... Intermittent loss of signal from the PIP.
Click to expand...
True.
An intermittent PIP malfunction will have you chasing ghosts.
My son's car ran pretty good, but something wasn't just quite right.
A bit of stumble, strong but not as strong as it should be...
We tuned it up, retuned it, swapped all sorts of sensors, rebuilt the injectors, and nothing got it quite right until the new distributor.
We didn't even suspect that, but he bought a code reader, and it came up PIP, and sure enough that was it.
 
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#19
As suggested above, plan on replacing the distributor...

Code 14 - Ignition pickup (PIP) was erratic – the hall effect sensor in the distributor is failing. Bad sensor, bad wiring, dirty contacts.

Revised 10-Dec-2012 to add PIP diagnostic testing & Wells info

The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.

PIP Sensor functionality, testing and replacement:
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. A failing PIP sensor will often set code 14 in the computer. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.

Some simple checks to do before replacing the PIP sensor or distributor:
You will need a Multimeter or DVM with good batteries: test or replace them before you get started.. You may also need some extra 16-18 gauge wire to extend the length of the meter’s test leads.
Visual check first: look for chaffed or damaged wiring and loose connector pins in the TFI harness connector.
Check the IDM wiring – dark green/yellow wire from the TFI module to pin 4 on the computer. There is a 22K Ohm resistor in the wiring between the TFI and the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 22,000 ohms +/- 10%.
Check the PIP wiring - dark blue from the TFI module to pin 56 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the SPOUT wiring – yellow/lt green from the TFI module to pin 36 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the black/orange wire from the TFI module to pin 16 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the red/green wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch on and the engine not running.
Check the red/blue wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch in Start and the engine not running. Watch out for the fan blades when you do this test, since the engine will be cranking.
If you do not find any chaffed or broken wires, high resistance connections or loose pins in the wiring harness, replace the PIP sensor or the distributor.

The PIP sensor is mounted in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. In stock Ford distributors, you have to press the gear off the distributor shaft to get access to it to replace it. Most guys just end up replacing the distributor with a reman unit for about $75 exchange

PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.

See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.


Putting the distributor back in and setting the timing.


You can forget about anything beyond this point if you don't have access to a timing light. You will never get the timing set right without one.


Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole, crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.

The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.

Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.


Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.

10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.

Note: setting the timing beyond the 10 degree mark will give you a little more low speed acceleration. BUT you will need to run 93 octane to avoid pinging and engine damage. Pinging is very hard to hear at full throttle, so it could be present and you would not hear it.

Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.

ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.

The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.

To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.

The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see that the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.

At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.

Remove the SPOUT connector (do a search if you want a picture of the SPOUT connector) It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT
Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.

Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

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