Weak Spark At Coil, No Spark At Plug

[modulistic]

@jrichker car sputtered then died while normal driving. Took a spark plug cable and ran it from coil to ground, with a small gap at the ground end. No spark, so I started troubleshooting no spark. Pulled the tfi and tested. One of the ohm measurements was off, so replaced the tfi. Still no spark, or so I thought. On a hunch, put a plug in the other end and held plug to ground. Got a wimpy little spark that apparenttly won't jump the rotor to the distrib and on to the cylinder plug wires. This is with or without spout.

Have a msd coil lol. Fuel press is good, and seem to be getting fuel at plugs. Plugs don't get wet, but smell faintly of gas. Trex pump fires audibly and loudly for a few seconds. When I depress the fuel press test spigot, I get a spurt of gas, but not the spray I was expecting. Msd coil looks newish. In tank fuel pump looked newish when I had it out 2 months ago during 4 cyl swap. Filter is good.

Question is, is this pip or coil? I'm thinking coil.

 

[84Ttop]

Are you running an MSD box? If so I would unplug it and try bypassing it first. I have recently seen a few MSD coils go bad but I'm not sure how you would test one, I always seem to have a spare laying around

 

[jrichker]

I would say coil. If it sparks at all when cranked, the PIP is working good enough to trigger the ignition.
A weak PIP will trigger the ignition, but not the computer to make the fuel injectors work.

 

[modulistic]

Nick, I'm running the btm, but had the same thought and pulled it out with no success.

Jrich, I think so too, but don't understand the ignition system fully yet, so wanted to consult the expert before tearing the distrib apart.

 

[jrichker]

Nick, I'm running the btm, but had the same thought and pulled it out with no success.

Jrich, I think so too, but don't understand the ignition system fully yet, so wanted to consult the expert before tearing the distrib apart.

Here's some help in that area....

How the TFI ignition works in 86-93 model Mustangs:

Tools needed: DVM, noid light, safety pin.

Theory of operation:
The TFI ignition in 86-93 Mustangs has 4 main components: the ignition switch, the coil, the TFI module and the PIP sensor inside the distributor.

The ignition switch gets power from the two yellow wires that are supplied power by a fuse link located in the wiring harness that connects to the starter solenoid.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

I.) The coil is mounted on the driver’s side strut tower on most EFI Mustangs. It gets power from a red/green wire and a brown/pink wire from the ignition switch. That wire from the ignition switch feeds a 20 gauge blue fuse link that connects to the red/green wire. The fuse link protects the wiring and the ignition switch, since the fuse link for the two yellow power supply wires has a much higher current rating. Without the smaller fuse link protecting the smaller wiring used in the ignition circuit, a short there would cause the red/green wire to overheat and burn up.

II.) The TFI module is mounted on the side of the distributor and supplies the ground for the coil. Every automotive power supply circuit uses the ground as the return path to carry power back to the negative side of the battery. The TFI switches the tan/yellow wire coming from the coil to ground. It gets power from the red/green wire when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The red/lt blue wire supplies a signal to turn on more power (dwell time) when the engine is cranking. The increased dwell can cause excessive current draw if the red/blue wire remains energized when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The trigger signal comes from the PIP sensor when cranking and the computer when the engine is running. The SPOUT jumper plug enables computer controlled spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, spark advance is locked at the setting determined by the mechanical position of the distributor.

III.) The PIP sensor is in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. It is a Hall effect magnetic sensor that senses a change in the magnetic field when one of the slots in the shutter wheel uncovers the sensor. Then it supplies a pulse that triggers the TFI module to provide a ground to the ignition coil. A bad PIP will often set code 14 in the computer and cause hot start problems. Replacing the PIP sensor requires removal of the distributor and pressing the gear off the distributor shaft to expose the sensor. For most people, a remanufactured distributor ($55-$75) is the solution, since they may not have access to a press.

IV.) Troubleshooting the ignition system – no spark or weak spark. All the tests are done with the ignition switch in the Run position unless specified otherwise. A safety pin may be used to probe the wiring connectors from the back side.
1.) Check for 12 volts at the yellow wires on the ignition switch. No 12 volts and the fuse link near the starter solenoid has open circuited.
2.) Check for 12 volts on the red/green and brown/pink wires coming out of the ignition switch. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
3.) Check for 12 volts at the ignition coil. No 12 volts and the blue 20 gauge fuse link has open circuited.
4.) Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you have wiring problems.
5.) Remove the small red/blue wire from the starter solenoid (looks like it is stuck on a screw). This is a safety measure to keep the engine from turning while you are making measurements. Have a helper turn the ignition switch to Start and look for 12 volts on the red/lt blue wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you will have starting problems, but push starting the car will work OK. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch. Be sure to reconnect the red/blue wire to the starter when you finish.
6.) Check the red/blue wire to make sure that it has less than 8 volts when the ignition switch is in the Run position.
7.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the PIP pulse. The computer uses the PIP signal to trigger the fuel injectors. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the PIP is working. No flash from the noid light and the PIP is suspect. To confirm the PIP is being the source of the non flashing noid light, look for 12 volts on the red injector wiring. Good 12 volts and no flashing noid light means the PIP has failed.
8.) Remove the SPOUT plug from the harness and try to start the engine. If it starts, replace the PIP. This is a common no start condition when the engine is hot.
9.) The TFI module is a go/no go item when you have a no spark/weak spark condition on a cold engine. It either works or it doesn’t.
The TFI failure mode on a running car is usually a high speed miss on a warm engine. Many auto parts stores will test your TFI module for free. Bring along a hair dryer to get it hot while testing it and run several test cycles, since it often gets weak when it heats up.

The coil is somewhat more difficult to pinpoint as a problem. A good coil will make a nice fat blue spark 3/8”-1/2” long. The problem is that one person’s perception of a fat blue spark looks like may not be accurate enough to spot a weak coil. The coil is cheap enough ($13-$16) that having a known good working spare might be a good idea.

diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2Birds

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

 

[modulistic]

that is tits, thanks.

the ohm test that failed on the TFI was hall effect power to run power in. I believe on the attached
manual pic at the bottom it is the one saying pip power to tfi power.

b to 4 at this site:
http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/tfi2.html

ohm test showed wide open. definitely more than 200ohm. I am wondering if something fried out both (or more) units at once. That will be a blast to provide a root cause analysis for. Am going to try running the old TFI once I get it all sorted out and see if the old TFI is truly good/bad. probably pebkac

 

[modulistic]

well, threw a stock coil on and it started right up. drove it for a while and it died with no start. waited a few mins and tried again, and it started, then tried to die a few times while cruising to my girlfriends house. its just sitting right now, im trying to decide what to do.

anyone hear of something burning up coils/tfi? maybe i got a bad tfi out of the box?

 

[modulistic]

seems to be heat related, probably nuked the new tfi because i scrimped on the grease. by scrimped, i mean i scraped the old grease off the old tfi and put it on the new tfi, because i forgot to get the grease at the store, lol.

 

[jka]

A bad pickup inside the distributor will cook the tfi module.

 

[modulistic]

hmm. probably should go ahead and swap out the pip tomorrow. its probably the original 1989 unit

 

[jrichker]

Use a noid light on one of the easily accessible fuel injector connectors. If it flashes good when cranking the engine, the PIP is good.

Replacing the PIP usually means that you end up replacing the distributor. The gear has to be pressed off the distributor shaft, and pressed back on. That's not always easy to do.

PIP Sensor functionality, testing and replacement:
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. A failing PIP sensor will often set code 14 in the computer. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.

Some simple checks to do before replacing the PIP sensor or distributor:
You will need a Multimeter or DVM with good batteries: test or replace them before you get started.. You may also need some extra 16-18 gauge wire to extend the length of the meter’s test leads.
Visual check first: look for chaffed or damaged wiring and loose connector pins in the TFI harness connector.
Check the IDM wiring – dark green/yellow wire from the TFI module to pin 4 on the computer. There is a 22K Ohm resistor in the wiring between the TFI and the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 22,000 ohms +/- 10%.
Check the PIP wiring - dark blue from the TFI module to pin 56 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the SPOUT wiring – yellow/lt green from the TFI module to pin 36 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the black/orange wire from the TFI module to pin 16 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the red/green wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch on and the engine not running.
Check the red/blue wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch in Start and the engine not running. Watch out for the fan blades when you do this test, since the engine will be cranking.
If you do not find any chaffed or broken wires, high resistance connections or loose pins in the wiring harness, replace the PIP sensor or the distributor.

The PIP sensor is mounted in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. In stock Ford distributors, you have to press the gear off the distributor shaft to get access to it to replace it.

To remove the gear, first you drive out the roll pin that secures the gear to the shaft. Then you get to press the gear off with a hydraulic press or puller. When you go to press the gear back on, it has to be perfectly lined up with the hole in the gear and shaft. I have been told that the hole for the pin is offset slightly from center and may require some extra examination to get it lined up correctly.

Most guys just end up replacing the distributor with a remanufactured unit for about $75 exchange

PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.

See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.

 

[modulistic]

Pip was loose and wiggled with each window of the rotor. Replaced entire distributor and it runs stronger than before. I would hate to have to pay a mechanic to do all that for me.

 

[jka]

Glad to hear that you got it running right again.

 

[jrichker]

Pip was loose and wiggled with each window of the rotor. Replaced entire distributor and it runs stronger than before. I would hate to have to pay a mechanic to do all that for me.

Glad you got it running good again. A loose PIP is something that I will add to the PIP test path tech note I posted.

 

[modulistic]

Thanks. These cars can definitely do some head scratching stuff. Im going to retry the MSD coil just to see if maybe it needs a strong input signal to fire. I think the root cause was the PIP.