On3 Performance .. Not Impressed.

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OK so.... I don't have an on3, I don't work for on3, and I don't even have a Fox. I've had a Boost Brothers system for about 6 years now, they went out of business because a bunch of people ragged on them too. I was told not to buy it because my headers would crack in a week and the cheap turbo wouldn't last. 6 years and 20,000+ miles ago. That happens a lot when you price your product much lower than the competition, and loyalists who spent a pretty penny on the alternatives (which in many cases aren't much better despite the pricetag) get hit with buyer's regret. The psychological term is cognitive dissonance - I didn't pay too much, you bought junk. Anyways...

But... I'll play devil's advocate here for others reading the thread. How do we know you're telling the whole story? A super fast wastegate failure is pretty uncommon, even for a cheap chinese unit. Usually you'll see springs get weak and it'll start to open too soon and you'll see a loss of power. Or you actually did forget the ring and it cooked the valve, I did that first but stopped driving before any damage happened. And a totally cooked turbo in <50 miles, also pretty unbelievable, if it moved at all before you installed it and you have any amount of oil getting to it, that is.

If I had to guess you have some super-high EGT's maybe due to a substantial engine tuning or hardware problem. Maybe a radical cam or really messed up timing or totally whacked fueling? Did you verify you had oil coming out of the line before running the engine? I don't blame on3 for thinking something doesn't smell right, because something doesn't smell right. You're either the unluckiest guy in the world, or you're not being fully honest. That's how it sounds to me, and probably to them.

If you did receive poor customer service, that's not cool, though I do sympathize with anyone who deals with the general public in that some dumbass is always trying to take advantage and blackmails you with threats to damage your reputation. Someone who did a lousy installation onto a pile of crap, and then wants their money back. A warranty is a warranty, if you couldn't install the system for a year, it's not a bad idea not to buy it until you can use it. No one's going to honor a warranty on something that sat around for a year because you say it did. Not on3, not anyone else. And when you sell an "inexpensive" anything, the quality of your clientele sometimes makes this a bigger problem. They hooked you up with the wastegate, so I think they compromised pretty well. Personally I don't blame them for not replacing your turbo, I agree there's something wrong with your installation or your tune, and you'd probably bake the next one too (and rip on on3 quality some more). You might take that as a word of caution before bolting on the next expensive one, once it arrives.

I'm not in the market for a new turbo system yet, but I wouldn't for a minute let this story stop me from trying an on3. Just like my BB turbo system, if the wastegate, turbo, and BOV (easy to replace with upgraded parts) all let go then I replace them with higher quality units. Still running the originals with my BB kit. Even without those pieces you're still saving some serious cash, as long as the headers are decent quality, which the on3 pieces seem to be. On my other car (a Mustang II v6 - no laughing please) I fabricated my own system (no one makes a kit lol), and time is money. A decently fitted kit (I had to do a LOT more modding for Boost Brothers and for my custom build than you describe) saves you a ton of time and aggravation. Turbo installs are still somewhat complex no matter what the brand, and it's not possible to account for everyone's customizations either (exhaust, k-members, suspensions, even motor mounts). You'll find the same hammering and cutting necessary even if you went with a $5,000 kit.

Just my $0.02, I don't know you and I'm not disputing your character. Just looking at the other side of the coin and applying a little healthy skepticism. Peace.
 
@jozsefsz

You're right. You don't know my character. Some guys on here know me personally and I'm guessing would vouch for me. Coming back and making the update about the wastegate to be fair should tell you something about me.... btw- haven't seen the promised wastegate either, and my turbo was shipped back to me in a box with zero packing. Very unprofessional. Looked like crackheads played kickball with it..- Playing devil's advocate is understandable because there really are two sides to every story. So I won't hold that against you either, even if you did make some pretty offensive statements...

Let's see... the wastegate ring was installed correctly, as was the oiling system. All photo documented, to cover my butt- not that it worked, or should have because, as stated and driven into the ground by you... the equipment was out of warranty. And before you ask, no I'm not going to post pics out of GP and me NOT having to justify myself to someone on the internet who could be a liar and actually representing on3.

peace .
 
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I think he missed the point of the post. Fact of the matter is you dont act like that as a professional. Period, end of story. And I can discredit your 'devils advocate' business by saying that I've seen the car in person. It's one of the cleanest foxes I've ever seen. He's a top notch mechanic and would trust him to work on my own car. But whether the parts were faulty or not, you still don't talk to your customers like that if you expect them to be loyal to your brand.
 
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@Boosted92LX Just to clarify, none of what were offensive statements were directed at you, I could have written that more clearly. We all know that "dumbass" and I did NOT mean to apply that to you. I've been that dumbass, incorrectly installing a part or getting in over my head. In no way did I mean to say you were a bad customer or one of the people that are truly a headache for vendors. Just that it helps people understand why they're sometimes mistreated by customer service. It's not good business and it shouldn't happen, but sometimes you can get fed up with scammers, the same way a customer can get fed up with poor vendors.

I also made it clear that this isn't my usual forum, and I don't know you at all, the quality of what you build, and so on. The other folks here do, it sounds like you do good work. It just helps to know that to an outsider, I (or you) could be anyone, and you probably appear that way to on3 as well. You're right, you owe me nothing, and you seem like a good guy. I truly do mean peace. :)
 
@Boosted92LX Just to clarify, none of what were offensive statements were directed at you, I could have written that more clearly. We all know that "dumbass" and I did NOT mean to apply that to you. I've been that dumbass, incorrectly installing a part or getting in over my head. In no way did I mean to say you were a bad customer or one of the people that are truly a headache for vendors. Just that it helps people understand why they're sometimes mistreated by customer service. It's not good business and it shouldn't happen, but sometimes you can get fed up with scammers, the same way a customer can get fed up with poor vendors.

I also made it clear that this isn't my usual forum, and I don't know you at all, the quality of what you build, and so on. The other folks here do, it sounds like you do good work. It just helps to know that to an outsider, I (or you) could be anyone, and you probably appear that way to on3 as well. You're right, you owe me nothing, and you seem like a good guy. I truly do mean peace. :)

Sorry, but I don't get why you bothered to post, other than to question his credibility. If you don't have anything constructive to add, move along.

And for the record On3 has pages full of people complaining about their poor quality and customer service.
 
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Sorry, but I don't get why you bothered to post, other than to question his credibility. If you don't have anything constructive to add, move along.

And for the record On3 has pages full of people complaining about their poor quality and customer service.

Thanks for your feedback, though I'll move along when I feel like moving along if you don't mind. If you post something on an open forum, expect some feedback. Whether or not you agree with it or think it has merit is up to you. Personally I think my post adds to the conversation and tries to look at the other side of things -- why you sometimes get Walmart level service when you shop at Walmart. I think the only post within these last few that doesn't add anything might be yours.
 
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I think the only post within these last few that doesn't add anything might be yours.
Mine were pretty good I think.
So can we sum it all up w "buyer beware"
This argument has been going on for years now fellas. The cat's outta the bag, on3 is junky and they act like d!cks once the product is purchased. I'm not claiming to have first hand experience but I have read page after page in various forums that read just like this one, in every facet of the way. One guy buys the product and reports back via forum that it doesn't work and they can't get in touch with them. Then you have the "you get what you pay for" guy chiming in and then the 3rd party devil's advocate gives his rebuttal and it goes on and on. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "ya get what ya paid for" type guy because sometimes an alternate route works out but I wouldn't touch on3 or any of the mass produced generic turbo "kits"for that matter, w a 10' pole. I'm a broke-azz and I considered em once but I read too many threads identical to this one to know to steer clear. I would t even buy one w @madmike1157 's money. ;)
 
Honestly I was on the fence a long time about on3. I believe before I bought the kit a few years back I even made the statement on this very forum that I'd never buy one because of the documented terrible customer service. But, I too gave in to the alure of the incredible bang for the buck.. Unfortunately, my bang was more of a fizzle. I'll agree there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I do a lot of things myself to save money, including machine work when I can get access to equipment. That said, and being a machinist with fair knowledge of bearings, manufacturing processes and tolerances, I can tell you I should have known better. Because, I've seen too many products come from China that were so poorly machined and tolerenaces were non-existant, that failure was just inevitable. This product I bought I thought, might be the exception, but it wasn't.

For the record, this thread wasn't about spite, it was about trying to help the next guy that busted his butt for his money only to spend it on something for nothing.

Does this not makes sense?
 
Mine were pretty good I think.

This argument has been going on for years now fellas. The cat's outta the bag, on3 is junky and they act like d!cks once the product is purchased. I'm not claiming to have first hand experience but I have read page after page in various forums that read just like this one, in every facet of the way. One guy buys the product and reports back via forum that it doesn't work and they can't get in touch with them. Then you have the "you get what you pay for" guy chiming in and then the 3rd party devil's advocate gives his rebuttal and it goes on and on. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "ya get what ya paid for" type guy because sometimes an alternate route works out but I wouldn't touch on3 or any of the mass produced generic turbo "kits"for that matter, w a 10' pole. I'm a broke-azz and I considered em once but I read too many threads identical to this one to know to steer clear. I would t even buy one w @madmike1157 's money. ;)

So you have determined based on your previous poking around that I must be the the reference standard for "disposable income"?

Dude if there was a way to categorize the forum populace by income, I'd be squarely in the middle.
There are so many degreed professionals on this forum driving raggedy assed old Mustangs you don't even know. I don't know your age, but I'd guess it to be early - mid 30's.

When I was there, I was broke, There were two little kids in the house, and in the ten years between 30 and 40 I went through about 10 jobs including the start up (and failure) of the one business I currently own.
Despite all of that, there still was some project in the garage none the less. The car ate every dollar, and there was way fewer dollars for it to eat. Not having any money forced me to learn to do it myself if I was gonna have it, so for all of the skills I've amassed, they came from necessity.

The fact that it has taken over 25 years to finally build a business that affords me the opportunity to dick off in between jobs just didn't land in my lap, and in the grand scheme of things, it could be way better if I wasn't in the garage dicking off,........but that's the way I choose to work it.
 
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So you have determined based on your previous poking around that I must be the the reference standard for "disposable income"?

Dude if there was a way to categorize the forum populace by income, I'd be squarely in the middle.
There are so many degreed professionals on this forum driving raggedy assed old Mustangs you don't even know. I don't know your age, but I'd guess it to be early - mid 30's.

When I was there, I was broke, There were two little kids in the house, and in the ten years between 30 and 40 I went through about 10 jobs including the start up (and failure) of the one business I currently own.
Despite all of that, there still was some project in the garage none the less. The car ate every dollar, and there was way fewer dollars for it to eat. Not having any money forced me to learn to do it myself if I was gonna have it, so for all of the skills I've amassed, they came from necessity.

The fact that it has taken over 25 years to finally build a business that affords me the opportunity to dick off in between jobs just didn't land in my lap, and in the grand scheme of things, it could be way better if I wasn't in the garage dicking off,........but that's the way I choose to work it.


From one old man to another...

"Old men and boys all have to have their toys..." :)
 
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For the record, this thread wasn't about spite, it was about trying to help the next guy that busted his butt for his money only to spend it on something for nothing. Does this not makes sense?
This makes perfect sense, and I appreciate anyone sharing their experience, positive or negative. However, I see some potential problems with pinning all of the blame on the vendor here, and that's where my feedback comes in. I'm hoping my comments help you save the next dollars your spending on an upgraded turbo because I'm afraid you haven't addressed the root cause. And I'm using this as an example to explain why treating vendors fairly is as important as treating customers fairly. Hopefully that makes sense.

@90lxwhite I also don't dispute this is the way most negative posts about a vendor go. To get a balanced view, you have to look at all sides of the story, which people try to share. From your reading, it sounds like your mind is made up, and you're not opened to new or additional information or ways of thinking that don't corroborate the conclusion you've already drawn. Which is completely fair, but these responses aren't just for you, they're for anyone who might come across this thread who maybe hasn't made up their mind yet. I have drawn the opposite conclusion: 90% of negative posts I've seen about on3 are from people who don't appear to know what the hell they're doing and appear to be their own car's worst enemy.

This will be my last comment, I promise. This one's for the potential benefit of the op and others installing a turbo kit of any brand. Maybe this will help you see why I don't consider this a case of black or white, good or bad, because I wasn't there and don't have the whole story. Installing a turbo kit is NOT a trivial matter, it is not a bolt-on operation. Those who want bolt-on are probably best advised to go with a supercharger.

Wastegate failure: what you experienced was not boost creep but a boost spike. This cannot have anything to do with the sealing ring. If you left out the sealing ring, you'd have built no boost at all, or very little. What could cause such a dramatic spike (in order of probability)?
- Hooking up the feed line from the turbo outlet to the wrong port on the wastegate.
- Some blockage or failure in the line from the turbo outlet to the wastegate (loose clamp, hole in hose, etc).
- One of those eBay manual boost controllers with a ball and spring check-valve. Those will open at precisely 15psi unless you remove the darned check-valve. I imagine you're using a boost controller since the kit springs are typically 5-6 psi and you're getting 10.
- A faulty wastegate (broken diaphragm, binding valve, etc.). This is very easy to bench-test, hit the wastegate with 5-10psi from your compressor and see if the valve moves. If it's faulty, document the test and send that to the vendor. If they don't respond (and you're still under warranty), use your credit card company or PayPal to raise a dispute if you feel they're not being responsive.

When you go for your first run, you are strongly advised to go part throttle and watch your instruments (AFR, Boost gauge) very closely before you go WOT and see a horrendous spike in boost. Even if the parts are faulty, you stand a very good chance of blowing your engine, and you'd have no one to blame but yourself. What is your Boosted AFR at 10psi by the way? If it's higher than 11:1 you're asking for serious trouble (and nothing in the stock tune will ever command that much fuel).

Turbo failure: It's not uncommon for a low-dollar chinese turbo to have tolerance issues - not disputed, I own two. Check it carefully for free-play and smooth rotation (no binding) before installation. If it's going to be a while until you install, check it when you receive the delivery. Keep it lubricated while it's in storage and try not to put it somewhere it'll get knocked around. There are a lot of other things to verify too, but turbo hardware is super simple.
- Prime the engine before starting (remove coil wire and run until oil pressure builds. Leave oil feed line off of the turbo to verify oil is coming through before you start it.) It's possible to destroy a turbo almost instantly if you haven't done this. A kink in the feed line is all it takes, or low oil pressure at idle if your engine is well-worn. Make sure the return lines are routed well. Garrett (see below) recommends 30psi as minimal operating pressure for a turbo, at all times. Did you verify your oil pressure meets this minimum?
- See the wastegate part above. A serious spike can cause the turbo to overspool, potentially causing catastrophic failure almost immediately. Drive cautiously at first, no more than a few PSI of boost.
- Don't even think of running more than a few PSI of boost until you are properly TUNED. Otherwise you will suffer severe lean conditions at WOT, potentially also timing-related detonation, especially at higher boost levels. If you only destroy your turbo, you are lucky. You will most likely destroy your engine (10psi will put you at above 400RWHP). I didn't see any mention of time at a dyno before the road-trip where the turbo failed in this thread. Remote tuning and canned chips can be ok for a CAI, but for turbo-level power, I think a dyno tune is probably best.

A turbo overheating to the point of melting the air filter and distant wiring is an INSANE amount of heat. I have never seen or heard of a turbo bearing failure causing that kind of heat. A bearing failure will cause noise, oil to pour into the exhaust, and ultimately the turbo to seize up. Balance issues will cause bearing failure and possibly catastrophic failure of the rotating assembly. Still, no super-heating. There is a huge possibility that a severe lean condition scorched your turbo (if you ran to 10-15psi with no tune this is absolutely what happened), and probably also baked your headers. When they crack severely, this will also not be a fault with the parts. And get a turbo blanket, it'll save the paint-job above the housing and any wiring harnesses in the neighborhood.

Here's a reference you might enjoy: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/troubleshooting (I think this is a pretty reputable vendor). Turbos are simple, but getting it completely right isn't so simple. I learned this stuff the hard way, and made a lot of these mistakes. I'd guess a LOT of the complaints people have would be addressed by professional installers, which someone buying a budget turbo kit probably won't do. I don't give two farts about on3 or Chuck or you guys, to tell you the truth (though I'm a cheap mofo and like to see the budget vendors stay in business, I realize their limits and solve my own problems when they arise). I'm just a guy in Cleveland who likes a good mystery when it's too cold to drive my turbo Mustangs this time of year, and like you, hope you (and everyone else who reads) gets their money's worth.
 
Again, I appreciatethe input, but you're beating a dead horse. The wastegate was binding. The turbo was junk. End of story. Afraid I haven't addressed the issue? I have. It's called turbonetics.
 
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So you have determined based on your previous poking around that I must be the the reference standard for "disposable income"?

Dude if there was a way to categorize the forum populace by income, I'd be squarely in the middle.
There are so many degreed professionals on this forum driving raggedy assed old Mustangs you don't even know. I don't know your age, but I'd guess it to be early - mid 30's.

When I was there, I was broke, There were two little kids in the house, and in the ten years between 30 and 40 I went through about 10 jobs including the start up (and failure) of the one business I currently own.
Despite all of that, there still was some project in the garage none the less. The car ate every dollar, and there was way fewer dollars for it to eat. Not having any money forced me to learn to do it myself if I was gonna have it, so for all of the skills I've amassed, they came from necessity.

The fact that it has taken over 25 years to finally build a business that affords me the opportunity to dick off in between jobs just didn't land in my lap, and in the grand scheme of things, it could be way better if I wasn't in the garage dicking off,........but that's the way I choose to work it.
No I was just messing with ya mainly. Remember when I asked if u were retired and I got catty saying u had a money tree?
 
Again, I appreciatethe input, but you're beating a dead horse. The wastegate was binding. The turbo was junk. End of story. Afraid I haven't addressed the issue? I have. It's called turbonetics.
I hope it works out for you! Just for giggles, google "[any brand turbo] are junk" and you'll get loads of hits.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=turbonetics+are+junk&start=20

Some choice quotes from http://forums.nicoclub.com/turbonetics-or-garret-t337641.html
"Turbonetics = junk!!! One of my friends went through three of them on his turbo Scion Tc. Another one of my friends went through one on his srt 4. Get the Garret and save the hassell"
"please dont get a turbonetics. my good friend just dropped there sponcership for garrett. he had a brand new super 72 and it ate it self three times in a row on 26psi. so he got fed up and went with garrett and has not had one problem."
"Ive heard the older turbonetics stuff is good but the new stuff is built using chinese parts and literally fall apart."

For the record, I don't believe any of those for @%#^ either.