Problems Bogging/stalling - Codes 84, 33, 13

Exile

Active Member
Apr 3, 2012
128
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Dallas, Tx
I am having a problem with this fox mustang...

It starts right up every time, and the motor seems to run good/smooth reving it up and down while its in park.
However when I go to drive it pulls good/hard in 1st gear, but when I shift into 2nd it seems to bog/stall and hesitate a little bit? but when I shift into 3rd, 4th, or 5th gear it seems to pull good/hard again? It seems to mainly stumble in 2nd gear for some reason?

These are the codes I am pulling from it...

KOEO codes - 84, 11
KOER codes - 33, 13

By researching the codes it looks like I have a IAC, and EGR/EVR problem?
Would a bad IAC, or EGR/EVR cause problems bogging/stalling/hesitating like this while driving?

Also I know I should get a code 11, which I do on the KOEO test, but should I also get the code 11 on the KOER test as well? (because I don't)

Any input is appreciated...
 
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KOEO codes - 84, 11
KOER codes - 33, 13

Actually, what you got was this...

KOEO codes - 84
CM (continuous memory) 11
KOER codes - 33, 13



Code 84 and 33 point to the EGR. If the EGR was stuck open, it would cause the bogging and stalling you are seeing. So first step would be to remove the EGR, and inspect and clean it. Also confirm the vacuum lines are in good shape and not broken.

Code 13 is usually from the idle being too high. You want to perform the idle reset procedure, which is to UNPLUG the IAC and manually adjust the idle set screw to lower idle down below 725 RPM....typically as low as you can go and keep the engine idling reliably. Once that is done, DISCONNECT the battery for 30 mins to erase all learned settings. Plug the IAC back in, connect the battery and start the car up and let it idle for 2 mins. Then, turn EVERY accessory on to increase electrical load (and A/C if it works) and let it idle for 2 mins. At that point, shut it off and then drive normally.


That will also erase all the codes, so clean the EGR and reinstall it and then perform the idle reset. Drive around for a day or so and then recheck the codes and go from there.

When you have cleared out all your codes, you will get THREE code 11's. two will be engine off (KOEO and CM) and one will be engine running
 
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Code 13 - Key on Engine off - ISC did not respond properly (extends to touch throttle then retracts for KOEO) – ISC

Key on Engine running - Idle Speed Control motor or Air Bypass not controlling idle properly (generally idle too high)

If your idle is above 725 RPM, the computer will set this code. Normal idle speed is 650-725 RPM. Higher than that means that someone has mechanically set the idle speed by use of the idle speed screw, and has effectively disabled the computer’s ability to control idle speed.


Code 33 - Insufficient EGR flow detected.
Look for vacuum leaks, cracked vacuum lines, failed EGR vacuum regulator. Check to see if you have 10” of vacuum at the EGR vacuum connection coming from the intake manifold. Look for electrical signal at the vacuum regulator solenoid valves located on the rear of the passenger side wheel well. Using a test light across the electrical connector, it should flicker as the electrical signal changes. Remember that the computer does not source any power, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.
Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1.5 ohm.

Backside view of the computer wiring connector:
a9x-series-computer-connector-wire-side-view-gif.71316


See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif


EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.

connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve or see the EGR test jig drawing below. Connnect the test jig or to directly to manifold vacuum.

Do not connect the EGR test jig to the EVR (Electronic Vacuum Regulator).


apply 5in vacuum to the valve. Using the test jig, use your finger to vary the vacuum

if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.

if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.

if engine stumbled, connect EGR test jig to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve.
Use your finger to cap the open port on the vacuum tee.
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not the EVR has failed

EGR test jig
egr-test-jig-gif.58022


The operation of the EGR vacuum regulator can be checked by using a test light applied across the wiring connector. Jumper the computer into self test mode and turn the key on but do not start the engine. You will hear all the actuators (including the EVR vacuum regulator) cycle. Watch for the light to flicker: that means the computer has signaled the EGR vacuum regulator successfully.


b]Code 84[/b] EGR Vacuum Regulator failure – Broken vacuum lines, no +12 volts, regulator coil open circuit, missing EGR vacuum regulator. The EVR regulates vacuum to the EGR valve to maintain the correct amount of vacuum. The solenoid coil should measure 20-70 Ohms resistance. The regulator has a vacuum feed on the bottom which draws from the intake manifold. The other vacuum line is regulated vacuum going to the EGR valve. One side of the EVR electrical circuit is +12 volts anytime the ignition switch is in the run position. The other side of the electrical circuit is the ground path and is controlled by the computer. The computer switches the ground on and off to control the regulator solenoid.



{b]Removing or disabling the EGR seems to be one of the favorite dumb stunts of people who don't understand how it works; here's some help. Someone may have connected the vacuum lines up incorrectly. This will help you get it all straightened out[/b].

Some basic theory to clarify how things work is in order…

EGR System theory and testing

Revised 29-Sep-2013 to add code definitions for EGR sensor and EVR regulator.

The EGR shuts off at Wide Open Throttle (WOT), so it has minimal effect on performance. The addition of exhaust gas drops combustion temperature, increases gas mileage and reduces the tendency of the engine to ping. It can also reduce HC emissions by reducing fuel consumption. The primary result of EGR usage is a reduction in NOx emissions. It does this by reducing the amount of air/fuel mixture that gets burned in the combustion process. Less air from the intake system means less air to mx with the fuel, so the computer leans out the fuel delivery calculations to balance things out. This reduces combustion temperature, and the creation of NOx gases. The reduced combustion temp reduces the tendency to ping.

The computer shuts down the EGR system when it detects WOT (Wide Open Throttle), so the effect on full throttle performance is too small to have any measurable negative effects.

The EGR system has a vacuum source (line from the intake manifold) that goes to the EVR, computer operated electronic vacuum regulator. The EVR is located on the back of the passenger side shock strut tower. The computer uses RPM, Load. and some other factors to tell the EVR to pass vacuum to open the EGR valve. The EGR valve and the passages in the heads and intake manifold route exhaust gas to the EGR spacer (throttle body spacer). The EGR sensor tells the computer how far the EGR valve is open. Then computer adjusts the signal sent to the EVR to hold, increase or decrease the vacuum. The computer adds spark advance to compensate for the recirculated gases and the slower rate they burn at.

The resistor packs used to fool the computer into turning off the CEL (Check Engine Light) off are a bad idea. All they really do is mess up the data the computer uses to calculate the correct air/fuel mixture. You can easily create problems that are difficult to pin down and fix.

egr-system-legal-size-paper-55-gif.51276


Troubleshooting:
There should be no vacuum at the EGR valve when at idle. If there is, the EVR (electronic vacuum regulator) mounted on the backside of the passenger side wheelwell is suspect. Check the vacuum line plumbing to make sure the previous owner didn’t cross the vacuum lines.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds. (the diagram says 88 GT, but the EGR part is the same for 86-93 Mustangs)
88Stang5.0Vacuum.gif


The EGR sensor is basically a variable resistor, like the volume control on a radio. One end is 5 volt VREF power from the computer (red/orange wire). One end is computer signal ground (black/white), and the middle wire (brown/lt green) is the signal output from the EGR sensor. It is designed to always have some small voltage output from it anytime the ignition switch is the Run position. That way the computer knows the sensor & the wiring is OK. No voltage on computer pin 27 (brown/lt green wire) and the computer thinks the sensor is bad or the wire is broken and sets code 31. The voltage output can range from approximately .6-.85 volt. A defective or missing sensor will set codes 31 (EVP circuit below minimum voltage) or 32 ( EGR voltage below closed limit).

The EVR regulates vacuum to the EGR valve to maintain the correct amount of vacuum. The solenoid coil should measure 20-70 Ohms resistance. The regulator has a vacuum feed on the bottom which draws from the intake manifold. The other vacuum line is regulated vacuum going to the EGR valve. One side of the EVR electrical circuit is +12 volts anytime the ignition switch is in the run position. The other side of the electrical circuit is the ground path and is controlled by the computer. The computer switches the ground on and off to control the regulator solenoid. A defective EVR will set codes 33 (insufficient flow detected), 84 (EGR Vacuum Regulator failure – Broken vacuum lines, no +12 volts, regulator coil open circuit, missing EGR vacuum regulator.)


EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

To check the EGR valve:
Bring the engine to normal temp.

Connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve or see the EGR test jig drawing below. Connnect the test jig or to directly to manifold vacuum.

Do not connect the EGR test jig to the EVR (Electronic Vacuum Regulator).


Apply 5in vacuum to the valve. Using the test jig, use your finger to vary the vacuum

If the engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.

If the engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.

If the engine stumbled, connect EGR test jig to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve.
Use your finger to cap the open port on the vacuum tee.
Snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
Did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
If not the EVR has failed

EGR test jig
egr-test-jig-gif.58022


To test the computer and wiring to the computer, you can use a test light across the EVR wiring connectors and dump the codes. When you dump the codes, the computer does a self test that toggles every relay/actuator/solenoid on and off. When this happens, the test light will flicker. If the test light remains on the computer or the wiring is suspect.

To check the EVR to computer wiring, disconnect the EVR connector and connect one end of the Ohmmeter to the dark green wire EVR wiring. Remove the passenger side kick panel and use a 10 MM socket to remove the computer connector from the computer. Set the Ohmmeter to high range and connect the other ohmmeter lead to ground. You should see an infinite open circuit indication or a reading greater than 1 Meg Ohm. If you see less than 200 Ohms, the dark green wire has shorted to ground somewhere.
 
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Code 84 and 33 point to the EGR. If the EGR was stuck open, it would cause the bogging and stalling you are seeing. So first step would be to remove the EGR, and inspect and clean it. Also confirm the vacuum lines are in good shape and not broken.

Code 13 is usually from the idle being too high. You want to perform the idle reset procedure, which is to UNPLUG the IAC and manually adjust the idle set screw to lower idle down below 725 RPM....typically as low as you can go and keep the engine idling reliably. Once that is done, DISCONNECT the battery for 30 mins to erase all learned settings. Plug the IAC back in, connect the battery and start the car up and let it idle for 2 mins. Then, turn EVERY accessory on to increase electrical load (and A/C if it works) and let it idle for 2 mins. At that point, shut it off and then drive normally.


That will also erase all the codes, so clean the EGR and reinstall it and then perform the idle reset. Drive around for a day or so and then recheck the codes and go from there.

When you have cleared out all your codes, you will get THREE code 11's. two will be engine off (KOEO and CM) and one will be engine running

Well I did exactly what you said to do above. ^ Then took it for a drive, but its still doing the same bogging/stalling at times. So once I got back home I got curious and went ahead and ran the codes again. Here is what I got now...

KOEO code - 11
CM (continuous memory) 11
KOER codes - 94, 44 <--- (I didnt mention these two codes the first time since everyone says its normal since the smog is deleted?)

So it looks like doing all that above ^ cleared up the error codes 84, 33, & 13. Which is great, but I still didnt get a code 11 on the KOER test?
Will I not get a code 11 on the KOER test since I will always have the error codes 94 & 44? Is that ok?

Any other ideas on the bogging/stalling? Could it be from a weak fuel pump?
 
With a code 94 and 44, you won't get a code 11.

It's possible you ran the codes a bit too soon. Try putting a few more miles and start/stop cyckes on the car and run them again.
 
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Fix the code 13 and then run a cylinder balance test....

Cylinder balance test: use this to find dead or weak cylinders:

Revised 25 March 2012 to add necessity allowing the KOEO tests to finish before starting the engine and the need for a properly functioning IAB/IAC to run the cylinder balance test.

The computer has a cylinder balance test that helps locate cylinders with low power output. You’ll need to dump the codes out of the computer and make sure that you have the A/C off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission in neutral. Fail to do this and you can’t do the engine running dump codes test that allows you to do the cylinder balance test.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Be sure to turn off the A/C clutch depressed to the floor, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.


Here's how to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Underhoodpictures007-01.jpg


Underhoodpictures010.jpg


If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and drivability problems

Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Cylinder balance test

If you have idle or IAC/IAB problems and the engine will not idle on its own without mechanically adjusting the base idle speed above 625-750 RPM, this test will fail with random cylinders pointed out every time it runs. The IAC/IAB must be capable of controlling the engine speed to run in the 1400-1600 RPM range. Playing with the base idle speed by adjusting it upwards will not work, the computer has to be able to control the engine speed using the IAC/IAB.

Warm the car's engine up to normal operating temperature. Use a jumper wire or paper clip to put the computer into test mode. Let it finish the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) code dump. Start the engine and let it go through the normal diagnostic tests, then quickly press the throttle to the floor. Remember to keep the clutch pedal (5 speed) depressed to the floor during the test. The engine RPM should exceed 2500 RPM's for a brief second. The engine RPM's will increase to about 1450-1600 RPM and hold steady. The engine will shut off power to each injector, one at a time. When it has sequenced through all 8 injectors, it will flash 9 for everything OK, or the number of the failing cylinder such as 2 for cylinder #2. Quickly pressing the throttle again up to 2500 RPM’s will cause the test to re-run with smaller qualifying figures.
Do it a third time, and if the same cylinder shows up, the cylinder is weak and isn’t putting out power like it should. See the Chilton’s Shop manual for the complete test procedure


Do a compression test on all the cylinders.
Take special note of any cylinder that shows up as weak in the cylinder balance test. Low compression on one of these cylinders rules out the injectors as being the most likely cause of the problem. Look at cylinders that fail the cylinder balance test but have good compression. These cylinders either have a bad injector, bad spark plug or spark plug wire. Move the wire and then the spark plug to another cylinder and run the cylinder balance test again. If it follows the moved wire or spark plug, you have found the problem. If the same cylinder fails the test again, the injector is bad. If different cylinders fail the cylinder balance test, you have ignition problems or wiring problems in the 10 pin black & white electrical connectors located by the EGR.

How to do a compression test:
Only use a compression tester with a screw in adapter for the spark plug hole. The other type leaks too much to get an accurate reading. Your local auto parts store may have a compression tester to rent/loan. If you do mechanic work on your own car on a regular basis, it would be a good tool to add to your collection.

With the engine warmed up, remove all spark plugs and prop the throttle wide open with a plastic screwdriver handle between the throttle butterfly and the throttle housing. Crank the engine until it the gage reading stops increasing. On a cold engine, it will be hard to tell what's good & what's not. Some of the recent posts have numbers ranging from 140-170 PSI. If the compression is low, squirt some oil in the cylinder and do it again – if it comes up, the rings are worn. There should be no more than 10% difference between cylinders. Use a blow down leak test (puts compressed air inside cylinders) on cylinders that have more than 10% difference.

I generally use a big screwdriver handle stuck in the TB between the butterfly and the TB to prop the throttle open. The plastic is soft enough that it won't damage anything and won't get sucked down the intake either.

A battery charger (not the trickle type) is a good thing to have if you haven't driven the car lately or if you have any doubts about the battery's health. Connect it up while you are cranking the engine and it will help keep the starter cranking at a consistent speed from the first cylinder tested to the last cylinder.

See the link to my site for details on how to build your own blow down type compression tester.
 
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