Been A While Since I've Been Here But I Need Help, My Mustang Died!

meltmanbob

Member
Dec 18, 2002
392
0
17
san diego CA
So last week Thursday I was driving to work and all of a sudden had a serious loss of HP. All gears accelerated like my 4th gear used to. Shortly after I replaced the distributor cap and rotor, oil change with filter and an exhaust gasket since I noticed after the power loss that there was more of an exhaust leak but now coming from the engine bay instead of the mid pipe to tail pipe connection where one of the flanges had rusted off and I had temporarily held together with some pipe clamps.

Anyway I'm not sure where to start. The fuel pump was replaced last summer from O'reilly's all though it was about 1/4" taller that the old one and is smashed against the gas tank floor. I also had the fuel pump relay sticking open after I shut the car off but that was replaced recently.

The car worked until Monday of this week, I drove it to work but when I went to go home I got about 50 feet in the parking lot before it died. Eventually it started up again but died and I left it there. The next day after work I tried it again and it started but died within 30 seconds.

I don't have a lot of auto tools since most of my tools were stolen a couple years ago and I haven't replaced them. Hopefully you guys can tell me where to start. I was planning on getting the cheap code reader from Autozone for Ford OBD1's although there is no check engine light. I was also going to get a fuel pressure gauge. I haven't had much time yet to research possible solutions but from what little I have read it might be a crank shaft or cam shaft sensor or the ignition control module.

There are some other issues with the car like the radiator fan not coming on till 1 mark below the redline which kills my thermostat and I need to replace the A/C clutch I think but those shouldn't effect the car starting and running. Anyway I would really appreciate the help, I'm really busy with work building a new Veterans hospital and school for my apprenticeship and soon to take my license exam to become a licensed electrician, thanks guys!
 
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Update - Got the car home and into the garage, bought several things to start working on it. Did a fuel pressure check with the car running and it showed ~38psi although the stupid gauge was leaking a little. I also pulled codes; key on engine off I got code 11 for both the immediate and continuous codes. Was able to pull codes while it was running and it came up with codes 21, 33, and 77, pulled codes several times and they were consistent each time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Got a PCV valve as well. One thing I noticed is that on the lower intake there are 2 spots that should have connectors, one is the fan switch sensor and the other is for a hose to the coolant. Where my fan switch single wire should be is my hose connector and where the hose connector should be is just a plug. Not sure why that is, has anyone seen this?
 
Oh, brother, it is dead. For sure. The newest car in here is 22 years old ... Motors even older! Foxes are in that inbetween stage before becoming classics.
Anyway, it's late and I could quickly google what your codes mean, but it's late, I'm lazy and my OBD I reader/book is in my car at my parents. What do those codes represent?
I've read, and personally experienced, the ICM cause a number of problems over the years but the last I bought one it was $114. I'd like to be sure that's where the problem is before I replaced it.
I assume your car is pre-integrated relay control module (I forget what year they started) since you mentioned replacing the fuel pump relay alone.

We're still here, we just have way too many other things going on!
 
Yea I tried joining another mustang site that seemed more active but was having issues with login credentials. Anyway as it stands now I've replaced the PCV simply because it has been a while, changed the coolant sensor on top of the lower intake because I've had issues with the fan coming on right below redline and killing thermostats for as long as I've had the car. I also did some other random stuff that needed to be done. I did find the digital code reader and yesterday I was pulling a code 63 then after a few tries I got a code 14 and 18 all from KOEO. When I could start it I could keep it running only if I got on the gas.

I've been tinkering with the TPS which I figured from the code is my issue considering I swapped in an SN95 throttlebody and my fabrication for using my stock TPS wasn't that great. I'm thinking that sensor is having issues because sometimes when it is in it's idle position it shows .04v but if you turn it and let it go back to the idle position most times it will sit around 1.4-1.5v if it doesn't almost zero out.

I'm probably going to go grab a TPS, connector and new throttle body from the junk yard since I drilled my TB to bolt my TPS on. Anyway I'm going to keep at it but I had hoped I would be able to come back here for help instead of slamming my head against the wall, nice to hear from you I do remember the screen name!
 
Yes and no. I replaced the TPS since I was getting a minimum voltage of ~1.45-1.6, I also replaced the TFI. I can't remember at this point what I read that made me decide to try that but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the original one I replaced. Either way the car will start and run but it runs like crap. The car revs very slow and won't go above 3-3.5k. The mid pipe with the cats will glow with only being on for a short while (couple minutes). I need to pick up an O2 sensor socket and some socket extensions and a vacuum pump to do some more work. I also replaced the EGR sensor that I bought and hadn't installed because even after the TPS and TFI I was still getting code 33 and I had already cleaned the EGR tube assembly. I left brake cleaner in it several times until it evaporated and scrubbed what I could with a brush kit from Harbor Freight that had extensions to the handle, also made sure the valve opened and closed easily.

I'm getting code 11 for the KOEO test but codes 13, 33, and 77 for the KOER. Tried doing a base idle reset but the care won't stay running with the IAC disconnected because it stumbles so much and sounds like it misses; the rpm's sound about right though. I'm going to try and remove the mid pipe section and see if that helps. I've been reading that the cat is probably clogged. Go figure right before this crap started I was trying to get the car in to have the exhaust replaced from the manifold back!

The only thing that changed before all of this stuff happened was for about a month or so I started running the highest octane fuel I normally could get which I think is 92 around here. I've always had a bad habit of not doing much for my car which is why I love it that it keeps on running but every so often something original fails since it's 25 now. I have a compression tester which I'll try to get around to using and also checking the vacuum; would really like to replace all of the vac lines just because.
 
Code 33 - Insufficient EGR flow detected.
Look for vacuum leaks, cracked vacuum lines, failed EGR vacuum regulator. Check to see if you have 10” of vacuum at the EGR vacuum connection coming from the intake manifold. Look for electrical signal at the vacuum regulator solenoid valves located on the rear of the passenger side wheel well. Using a test light across the electrical connector, it should flicker as the electrical signal changes. Remember that the computer does not source any power, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.
Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1.5 ohm.

Backside view of the computer wiring connector:
a9x-series-computer-connector-wire-side-view-gif.71316


See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif


EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.

connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve or see the EGR test jig drawing below. Connnect the test jig or to directly to manifold vacuum.

Do not connect the EGR test jig to the EVR (Electronic Vacuum Regulator).


apply 5in vacuum to the valve. Using the test jig, use your finger to vary the vacuum

if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.

if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.

if engine stumbled, connect EGR test jig to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve.
Use your finger to cap the open port on the vacuum tee.
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not the EVR has failed

EGR test jig
egr-test-jig-gif.58022


The operation of the EGR vacuum regulator can be checked by using a test light applied across the wiring connector. Jumper the computer into self test mode and turn the key on but do not start the engine. You will hear all the actuators (including the EVR vacuum regulator) cycle. Watch for the light to flicker: that means the computer has signaled the EGR vacuum regulator successfully.



Code 13 - Key on Engine off - ISC did not respond properly (extends to touch throttle then retracts for KOEO) – ISC

Key on Engine running - Idle Speed Control motor or Air Bypass not controlling idle properly (generally idle too high)

If your idle is above 725 RPM, the computer will set this code. Normal idle speed is 650-725 RPM. Higher than that means that someone has mechanically set the idle speed by use of the idle speed screw, and has effectively disabled to computer’s ability to control idle speed.
 
Just by chance, do you have an MSD box of some sort? The starting/not starting/running fine/running badly with quickly glowing cats. I used to have a GMC with an MSD 6A. When the MSD went bad, it did exactly that. If you don't, consider yourself richer for the knowledge.
 
No MSD. Found part of my problem to be several vacuum hoses. The red and green to the egr regulator, both had melted spots from hitting the egr tube. I replaced both along with one that went from the tree on the driver side to a T on the passenger side. I had also forgotten to reconnect the hose from the PCV to the underside of the upper intake. The car now starts and runs as good if not better than before these problems started.

KOEO gives me code 23 for On. Code 11 for KOEO continuous.

I also get 23,13, and 77 for KOER.

I did a base idle reset; disconnected battery, disconnected IAC, reconnected battery, started car, set idle as low as I could, the screw was lower than the lowest position the throttle would go so I raised the screw just enough so the throttle would tough but the idle sat around 825-875 I think, reconnected IAC and idle is now around 900.

Reset base timing now that the car is running smoother; loosened distributor, started car, disconnected spout, adjusted timing to ~12 degrees btdc, reconnected spount, had gf rev car and watched the timing adjust closer to 10 degrees but it seemed to try and maintain its position.

Car doesn't seem to miss when idling even when the IAC was disconnected and the rpm's got to around 750. I'm off to bed but get back to me if you guys have time.

jrichker - thanks for stopping by after I contacted you, hope to hear back from you!
 
Also I wanted to ask about the EGR regulator, there is a California emissions version which I think I have. There is the regulator and then some kind of plug extension in it that the connector plugs into. Mine was partially broken and I was able to get it apart; it just looks like an extension, am I missing something? I took it out and plugged the connector directly into the regulator and the car runs as described in the previous post.
 
4 cylinder Ford cars are out of the realm of my expertise, but some of the computer codes are the same. Here's what I have to contribute.

Code 23 - Throttle sensor out of range or throttle set too high - TPS needs to be reset to below 1.2 volts at idle. Keep in mind that when you turn the idle screw to set the idle speed, you change the TPS setting.

You'll need a Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job.

Wire colors & functions:
Orange/white = 5 volt VREF from the computer
Dark Green/lt green = TPS output to computer
Black/white = Signal ground from computer

Always use the Dark Green/lt green & Black/white wires to set the TPS base voltage.

Do the test with the ignition switch in the Run position without the engine running.

Use the Orange/white & Black white wires to verify the TPS has the correct 5 volts source from the computer.

When you installed the sensor make sure you place it on the peg right and then tighten it down properly. Loosen the back screw a tiny bit so the sensor can pivot and loosen the front screw enough so you can move it just a little in very small increments. I wouldn’t try to adjust it using marks. Set it at .6.v-.9 v.

1. Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.

2. When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.

If setting the TPS doesn’t fix the problem, then you may have wiring problems.
With the power off, measure the resistance between the black/white wire and battery ground. You should see less than 2 ohms. Check the same black /white wire on the TPS and MAP/Baro sensor. More than 1 ohm there and the wire is probably broken in the harness between the engine and the computer. The 10 pin connectors pass the black/white wire back to the computer, and can cause problems.

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)


Code 77 Quickly press the accelerator so that the engine RPM exceeds 2500 for a brief moment - this is the "goose test" . The engine will do some diagnostic testing - this is the cylinder balance test as described below


Cylinder balance test

If you have idle or IAC/IAB problems and the engine will not idle on its own without mechanically adjusting the base idle speed above 625-750 RPM, this test will fail with random cylinders pointed out every time it runs. The IAC/IAB must be capable of controlling the engine speed to run in the 1400-1600 RPM range. Playing with the base idle speed by adjusting it upwards will not work, the computer has to be able to control the engine speed using the IAC/IAB.

Warm the car's engine up to normal operating temperature. Use a jumper wire or paper clip to put the computer into test mode. Let it finish the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) code dump. Start the engine and let it go through the normal diagnostic tests, then quickly press the throttle to the floor. Remember to keep the clutch pedal (5 speed) depressed to the floor during the test. The engine RPM should exceed 2500 RPM's for a brief second. The engine RPM's will increase to about 1450-1600 RPM and hold steady. The engine will shut off power to each injector, one at a time. When it has sequenced through all 4 injectors, it will flash 9 for everything OK, or the number of the failing cylinder such as 2 for cylinder #2. Quickly pressing the throttle again up to 2500 RPM’s will cause the test to re-run with smaller qualifying figures.
Do it a third time, and if the same cylinder shows up, the cylinder is weak and isn’t putting out power like it should. See the Chilton’s Shop manual for the complete test procedure
 
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Ok so the TPS was one of the first things I replaced and I checked the new one using the sensor wires to make sure I had 5v and that it was reading between .5-1v; it's reading .6 something at idle last I checked but I will check it again. I haven't tested the resistance of the wires as described yet but I will give that a shot as well.

Regarding code 13 it seems like from your previous post that this code will go away when I get the idle working correctly.

As for code 77 I just want to double check that this is the right situation. I can back the throttle set screw all the way out so the throttle plate closes as far as it can on it's own and doesn't even touch the screw yet it won't go any lower than ~825-875rpms with the IAC unplugged. When I plug the IAC in it stays right around 850-900rpms. I just wanted to make sure you understood my description about the set screw.

Also do you have any idea why my fan doesn't come on until almost redline on the temp gauge even after replacing the ECT (I think) sensor? That problem keeps killing my thermostats and then I get no warmth during the winter. Thanks again.
 
Still haven't had much time to get any further. Drove it to work yesterday (Monday) and it felt like power was missing at various points of throttle and generally felt sluggish. I adjusted the timing when I got home from 12-14 to ~10 hopefully and today it felt like it at least pulled when I got on the throttle at any position. It still feels like there is less power than there should be and as I remember it once running.