What Sinals Does The Fuel Injection Need?

[raser13]

Ok, first off i just want to say I'm probably going to confuse the daylights out of both you AND me. So follow me down the rabbit hole.

Secondly I don't own a stang. I own an amc javelin.

Now you may then wonder why I'm posting questions in a stang forum. Rightly so.

Thirdly here's why. The javelin unlike the stang has a verry small aftermarket. Both in body and in performance parts. Now my car has a 304ci motor that is verry similar to the 302. But very much different.

What I'm trying to do is convert another companies mpfi system to work on my car. And I've basically narrowed the ford 5.0L to be the most compatible with what I'm trying to do.

So now I'm trying to plot out what i need to do to make the conversion. So that's why i need your help. Narrowing down the years and parts I'll need. Mostly for right now i need to know all the sensors that the fuel system needs to function. If there's some i can leave off great. The less wiring i have to add the better.

I know i need maf and map, O2 sensor, and timming. Speaking of the timming where does the signal for the timming come from?

I've seen some post saying off of a magnetic pick up in the dizzy. And others that say they come from a crank and cam sensor. Different years i would assume. What year marks the difference? And what do each of the use to count the timming?

I know this is a weird set of questions and a crazy idea. But any help would be great. If it helps i have had a couple early 80s stangs and a capri when i was a teen.

 

[rbohm]

do yourself a huge favor and forget changing over to a SEFI system like the ford. if you want EFI, then this is the best way to go for your application since it just bolts to the four barrel intake, and only needs four wires hooked up;

Products

scroll down to the bottom third of the page and find things like, easy set up, self tuning, fully contained system, etc. and it will support up to 600hp. it will make the swap to EFI simple without going through the hassles of adapting a ford system to an AMC motor.

heck it is even simpler that using the megasquirt system.

 

[raser13]

Thanks rbohm, the reason i was looking at the ford set up is i really want a multi port system. Theres a chevy tbi that bolts right up to the amc. I really don't like throttle bodies. I've had a few cars that had them and they never seemed to be any better than a carb. Essentially they work pretty much the same way.

I've gotten most of it worked out. From the mill points on the intake to the adaptor that needs to be fabbed up to bolt the throttle section of the ford system. The main thing I'm trying to work out is the timing sensor whether it's in the distributor or it's a cam crank sensor. I think it's the only one i don't have set up.

 

[stykthyn]

It's in the distributor. In theory as long as you have all the sensors in the right place it "should" work. How have you figured out the timing/fuel injector pulse? Does the amc engine follow the same timing pattern?

All said and done I really think that a stand alone fuel management system would be light years better. A lot of the fox guys are ditching their own ecus in favor of one.

 

[raser13]

stykthyn, if by your question you're asking how do i plan to rectify the two different firing orders it's actually pretty easy.

The ford is 15426378 the amc is 18436572. Basically I'll cut open the injector wiring part of the harness and shuffle them around till the firing order is a match to the amc.

The ford #1 will go to the amc #1, ford #5 to amc #8, #4 to #4, #2 to #3 and so on. The injectors don't care where they are. The just fire off when they're told to. So as long as i have the injector in the right sequence it should work.

That's why i have to get this timing thing down. So the computer can read a timing signal and make everything fire at the right time.

 

[stykthyn]

I'm assuming you are going to go with a mass air set up?

Make sure you know what firing order to use. Mustang uses the ho firing order.

 

[jrichker]

stykthyn, if by your question you're asking how do i plan to rectify the two different firing orders it's actually pretty easy.

The ford is 15426378 the amc is 18436572. Basically I'll cut open the injector wiring part of the harness and shuffle them around till the firing order is a match to the amc.

The ford #1 will go to the amc #1, ford #5 to amc #8, #4 to #4, #2 to #3 and so on. The injectors don't care where they are. The just fire off when they're told to. So as long as i have the injector in the right sequence it should work.

That's why i have to get this timing thing down. So the computer can read a timing signal and make everything fire at the right time.

That won't work properly.

The computer uses the firing order to identify which cylinder bank is which. The O2 sensors are located in the passenger and driver side exhaust headers. They deliver information to the computer and it expects to find the firing order like the 5.0 Ford. When they aren't on the firing order where Ford designed the computer for, it trims the fuel on the wrong bank. Cylinders can be forced to run lean or rich and the more the computer tries to trim the A/F mixture, the worst the problem gets.

 

[raser13]

Thanks stykthyn, i didn't know that about the firing orders. I'll add it to my files.

Jrichker that does persent an issue. Do the sense right at the exhaust stroke of a cylinder on that side? Or are they constantly sensing? If on the exaust stroke do you think it would work if i did an X pipe exaust and had the O2 sensors both located on the cross point?

 

[raser13]

As for the counter in the distributer cap. Does it have to work counter clockwise or do you think it will work clockwise as well?

 

[stykthyn]

The magnetic pick up is inside the distributor and the ignition module is located on the distributor body. This is one of several physical items that need to be addressed before you can even plot moving forward with wiring. You still haven't mentioned what you are using for an intake. Having been in the jeep world I don't think there is an mpfi intake available hence most people go with a gm tbi set up.

 

[jrichker]

Thanks stykthyn, i didn't know that about the firing orders. I'll add it to my files.

Jrichker that does persent an issue. Do the sense right at the exhaust stroke of a cylinder on that side? Or are they constantly sensing? If on the exaust stroke do you think it would work if i did an X pipe exaust and had the O2 sensors both located on the cross point?

The O2 sensors on 5.0 Mustang are mounted in the H pipe about 6" past the joint that couples the header collector pipe to the H pipe. There is one O2 sensor in each side of the exhaust system placed just before the catalytic converter on a stock 5.0 Mustang. The O2 sensors continually monitor the air/fuel ratio at all times. The possible exception to this statement is except at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). If I recall correctly, at WOT it remembers the last data from the O2 sensors just before WOT.

The best bet for you is a Mega Squirt system. See [Megasquirt EFI - Fuel injection and Ignition Control ECU for more information. Stangnet's resident wild project guy madmike1157, built a Mega Squirt 2 system for his turbo Ford Fairmont 6 cylinder. Now that's a testimony of what a wide range of engines and power adders the Mega Squirt system can be built to work with.

With a sequential EFI you will end up making or modifying an intake manifold to fit your application. Welding in bosses to mount the fuel injectors is possible but not a simple task.

 

[Bullitt347]

Here is another possibility. I know a guy that runs a SBC in a Nostalgia dragster. He has his camshaft ground to the Ford firing order and runs the engine that way. Says it is supposed to make more power. His dragster runs 7.0's in the 1/4 mile so I guess it works. The SBC has the same firing order as the AMC. So you could get a custom cam made and run the ford firing order that way. Also buy the biggest single plane manifold made for the AMC and have injector bungs welded into the runners and run a big throttle body and that would complete the SEFI system.

 

[raser13]

Basically i was going to modify the stock intake by drilling holes and adding the bungs for the injectors.

I've been looking at the ford edis system for running the spark. There's a way to modify the 36-1 gear to bolt to the amc crank balancer . And thank you for telling me about the mega squirt. It looks verry promising for my application. AND it works with the edis system.

I have to look at a trottle body that i can modify to work in the stock carb spot for air control.