Backround: Built a 347 for my 88 Ranger. Eagle rotating assembly (fully forged), Clevite bearings, March Serpentine kit, TCI 157 tooth flexplate, TCI 3,000 stall Torque Converter and TCI C4 Transmission (Auto Valve Body). Crankshaft endplay was set to 0.005. Dropped the motor in, properly broke in and at the 300 mile mark changed oil and cut open the filter to find normal break-in shavings and copper. Immediately Ripped the motor out and the thrust bearing was ate up badly. No other bearings showed any abnormal wear. The crankshaft had almost 0.014 endplay. Installed new thrust bearing and re-set endplay to 0.005. Re-installed the motor. Grounded it out properly, it has a single trans cooler which is not linked to the radiator at all and all lines are free of kinks. After starting it up and doing a few electrical tests and some free revving for a few days, removed the filter to find no copper what so ever. (Note: Did not drive truck at all during this time. Never went into gear). Installed new filter, drove it for about an hour and removed the filter. Cut it open and found glorious copper. I hooked my Go-Pro to the oil pan to take a video of the converter while driving around the block. While under a 2,000 rpm load it appears this thing is moving quite a bit. I rechecked endplay and its now at 0.008. Also, while cranking, I noticed the flexplate would wobble more than I would like to see. All parts are new out of the box. Let me know if you need pictures of what the old thrust bearing and filter looked like. I'll send them over as requested along with the video. What would be causing the premature wear of the thrust bearing?
302 (347) Ford Thrust Bearing Issues
- Thread starter Mona91
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I am not an auto guy, but there was a similar thread on corral about a month or so ago. I think they figured out it had something to do with the convertor not being spaced correctly.
Perhaps you can do a search over there and find the thread. That really sucks, hopefully you can get it figured out.
Joe
Perhaps you can do a search over there and find the thread. That really sucks, hopefully you can get it figured out.
Joe
Thanks Rangerjoe. I'll take a look on corral. Just looked over my TCI Transmission paperwork and every last one of the min/max pressures are out of range except for Drive Max.
Park Min 90
Park Max 155
Rev Min 200
Rev Max 290
Neutral Min 90
Neutral Max 150
L1 Min 135
L1 Max 150
L2 Min 130
L2 Max 155
Drive Min 95
Drive Max 170
This is off the TCI website:
Range Minimum Maximum
Park 5-75 220-250
Reverse 50-175 235-280
Neutral 55-75 220-250
Drive 55-75 155-170
Second 90-105 110-125
Low 90-105 110-125
I know your not an auto guy but, I'm posting it just in case one chimes in. Thanks again.
Park Min 90
Park Max 155
Rev Min 200
Rev Max 290
Neutral Min 90
Neutral Max 150
L1 Min 135
L1 Max 150
L2 Min 130
L2 Max 155
Drive Min 95
Drive Max 170
This is off the TCI website:
Range Minimum Maximum
Park 5-75 220-250
Reverse 50-175 235-280
Neutral 55-75 220-250
Drive 55-75 155-170
Second 90-105 110-125
Low 90-105 110-125
I know your not an auto guy but, I'm posting it just in case one chimes in. Thanks again.
So, I found the post I was referring to on corral. It was actually a T5 trans, but someone linked another post on yellow bullet with similar issues. This was the post that had the auto. Not sure if it is relevant to your situation or not.
Yellow Bullet Forums - View Single Post - Dammit - Thrust .020" in 9 passes...
Joe
Yellow Bullet Forums - View Single Post - Dammit - Thrust .020" in 9 passes...
Joe
Helps. It gives me some insight on similar effects with different causes. I have 2 identical setups, one with a manual valve body and one with an auto valve body. As it should, the manual valve body makes more pressure than the auto but had never had any issues destroying crankshaft thrust bearings, and I beat the piss out of that poor car. 7,000 RPM and I don't show mercy. This one I haven't taken it over 4,000 rpm and its eating itself alive. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for the help.
mikestang63
SN Certified Technician
Setting the torque converter play is critical, but mostly for the torque converter's health. If I recall correctly you don't want the torque converter pulled out of the trans more than about an inch or so. If it is torque converter related Dan over at Silverfox could definitely give you an opinion. Woody over at fordstrokers.net is also a great resource.
I built a 347 last year with help from Woody's site sbfbuilding.com and also an AOD with a kit from Dan at Silverfox. Between Dan and Woody you'll get an answer!
The wobbly flex plat has me a little worried - I believe that could cause motion that could stress the thrust bearing. I'd get to the bottom of that ASAP
I built a 347 last year with help from Woody's site sbfbuilding.com and also an AOD with a kit from Dan at Silverfox. Between Dan and Woody you'll get an answer!
The wobbly flex plat has me a little worried - I believe that could cause motion that could stress the thrust bearing. I'd get to the bottom of that ASAP
Yeah, it worries me too. I'm planning on unbolting the converter from the flexplate and rotating it to a different position. Who knows. I've seen stranger things work.
My spacing was within specification from bellhousing to pads, from block plate to flexplate and once installed flexplate to converter. Once the converter was installed on the transmission, I installed the motor and connected the flexplate to the converter using the supplied studs and nuts from TCI. No real forward movement of the converter to the flexplate was observed or needed.
I'll consult the guys you mentioned. Quite a few people have mentioned their names to me before.
The wobble in the flexplate is visable during cranking only. Once its running at an idle, even if I turn down the idle to a crawl, you can't see the wobble with the naked eye or with a video slowed down. i'm not sure if it's my OCD kicking in or a no **** problem. I've seen some serious wobble before on flexplates and in compairson, this is nothing. But, like you said, that can and WILL eat a thrust bearing up. Agree 100%.
Once on the accelerator, under load, you can see the converter and obviously the flexplate, advancing forward to the back of the motor however. That to me is my main question. How much should the unit move forward? I'm going to take another crankshaft measurement today to see if it's increased at all after the 10 mile drive I took to work this morning. Thanks for the advice 68keyblr.
My spacing was within specification from bellhousing to pads, from block plate to flexplate and once installed flexplate to converter. Once the converter was installed on the transmission, I installed the motor and connected the flexplate to the converter using the supplied studs and nuts from TCI. No real forward movement of the converter to the flexplate was observed or needed.
I'll consult the guys you mentioned. Quite a few people have mentioned their names to me before.
The wobble in the flexplate is visable during cranking only. Once its running at an idle, even if I turn down the idle to a crawl, you can't see the wobble with the naked eye or with a video slowed down. i'm not sure if it's my OCD kicking in or a no **** problem. I've seen some serious wobble before on flexplates and in compairson, this is nothing. But, like you said, that can and WILL eat a thrust bearing up. Agree 100%.
Once on the accelerator, under load, you can see the converter and obviously the flexplate, advancing forward to the back of the motor however. That to me is my main question. How much should the unit move forward? I'm going to take another crankshaft measurement today to see if it's increased at all after the 10 mile drive I took to work this morning. Thanks for the advice 68keyblr.
Verdict is in: When I left this morning to go to work, the crankshaft endplay was 0.010. Once I got home, I measured the endplay again. The crankshaft endplay is now......drumroll........0.015! Time to take the motor back out and play doctor again. I'm not in the business blowing up motors and wasting money, so this is my only option...again. Any advice on what I should be looking for during the surgery? Last time I did it, 50 miles or so ago, I checked EVERY SINGLE BEARING and corresponding service for abnormalities and the only one that measured out of specification and looked like hammered dog **** was the thrust bearing.
I will most certainly check for cracks while its out and torn down.
It's all internal balanced. The march kit is all new and properly spaced. When I let the motor idle in park for a few seconds, I can turn it off and have the same crankshaft play fore and aft. None of the pullies seem to be out of alignment but trust, I will be scrutinizing that while its out too.
Quick update: I spoke with TCI and they told me to simply put a 0.080 washer between the 0.060 block plate and bell housing...well 6 respectively. 0.140 clearance in addition to the 0.125 that's between the converter pad and flex plate. Does that sound right?
It's all internal balanced. The march kit is all new and properly spaced. When I let the motor idle in park for a few seconds, I can turn it off and have the same crankshaft play fore and aft. None of the pullies seem to be out of alignment but trust, I will be scrutinizing that while its out too.
Quick update: I spoke with TCI and they told me to simply put a 0.080 washer between the 0.060 block plate and bell housing...well 6 respectively. 0.140 clearance in addition to the 0.125 that's between the converter pad and flex plate. Does that sound right?
So just to update everyone, I took the motor out yesterday and did an inspection on the engine only for now. It was getting late so I didn't have the time or the proper light to do any real measuring. I did measure the final endplay after driving it around the driveway a few times and it ended up being 0.017. After talking to TCI about using washers as spacers to get the right clearance, I got curious and found this old thread from 2006 discussing the same issue I was having.
Torque Converter Clearance Problems | Maverick/Comet Forums
Once I get the newly ordered parts in and installed, I'll post some pictures and results for your entertainment.
As for the flexplate wobble, the flexplate is true and straight however, the ring gear is not welded straight. There is about an 1/8 inch difference 180 degrees out from one side to another. I'll be calling TCI this morning about this.
Thanks in advance for everyone's help so far. Hope you guys had a Merry Christmas and I wish all of you a Happy New Year.
Torque Converter Clearance Problems | Maverick/Comet Forums
Once I get the newly ordered parts in and installed, I'll post some pictures and results for your entertainment.
As for the flexplate wobble, the flexplate is true and straight however, the ring gear is not welded straight. There is about an 1/8 inch difference 180 degrees out from one side to another. I'll be calling TCI this morning about this.
Thanks in advance for everyone's help so far. Hope you guys had a Merry Christmas and I wish all of you a Happy New Year.
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When the engine is mated to the transmission, what type of clearance do you have from the face of the unbolted converter to the flex plate? What side of the thrust is worn? Has the crankshaft been checked to be true in face of the center journal?
I would make zero assumptions until you find the problem, re assembling this motor as is and not locating the issue at hand will be a failure waiting to happen.
I would make zero assumptions until you find the problem, re assembling this motor as is and not locating the issue at hand will be a failure waiting to happen.
84Ttop: I'm following you on your suggestions. Converter to Flexplate spacing was just shy of 1/8 inch. With that being said, its possible the Flexplate may be flawed. Talked with TCI again and they want me to send them the Flexplate for inspection. It concerns them that the ring gear was welded on crooked, about an 1/8 inch difference from once side to another...so, a measurement on one end might be 1/8 and the other...well, who knows if its really crooked by 1/8 inch or, the misaligned ring gear could be throwing everything out of rounds and balance while rotating. They also said it could cause the thrust bearing wear and possibly a rear main seal leak. I did see small traces of oil on the bell housing interior upon disassembly. Haven't looked at the seal yet, still dealing with holidays and birthdays so, soon enough hopefully to get the Flexplate off and sent out to TCI. The rear side of the thrust bearing was worn, transmission side. As for the crankshaft; the first time this happened I had it checked out by the machine shop for wear and other things that were mentioned in previous posts. All check out perfect. They said if I didn't tear the motor down, it would have been a very expensive paper weight. I will be sending it back out again. I might just send the entire motor out to get everything rechecked. That might take a while though, recovering from holidays and soon Hallmark Holidays.
I would be sure that the converter is not too loose, does it have ballooning plates? I've seen the rearward thrust face destroyed in more than a few motors from an improperly setup torque converter.
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