I've Decided To Build A 351/400
- Thread starter from6to8
- Start date
-
Sponsors (?)
I'm sure you mean elbow only with the victor jr?
If the hood has to be cut for the TFS Box R to fit, can someone possibly just notch out some of the inside of the hood in the area that it's hitting? I don't want to lower the motor and risk the LT's hitting the ground even worse than it already might so to get it to fit I'd want to make sure I have a game plan for that. I know some has said some can be milled off the spacer and some say spacer and upper but you have to be careful not to come down too much and hit the distributor. Man ole man I want to avoid all that stuff lol. I am running a cervini's stalker hood which is a 2-2 1/2 inch rise
With yours being a SN95 car I'm not informed on hood clearance. I know it's a pita to fit into a Fox lol. Most fox body guys have a hard time fitting an tfs r-9.5" motor under even a 4" cowl. I do know the single plane/elbow types are lower than the box r. It may not be as aesthetically pleasing to you but you should investigate all of the available intakes for their dimensions. I'd base my decision off that,rpm band,price,and then the aesthetic appeal.
most definitely.
I will also inquire on how much the hood may have to be cut/trim in certain areas to fit
351 block means a cowl hood, or an intake so helpless it kills your power. Low end torque is over rated. No matter which engine you end up with, you are going to have far more low end torque than a street tire can handle. If you have a drag tire, you launch at 5000+rpms, and the engine never goes below 4000rpms for the entire quarter mile. Don't get bent around the barrel over the low end torque thing, it won't be an issue. I am not trying to talk you into one engine or the other. Just be aware that the 351 swaps add a lot of cost that isn't initially obvious.
The transmission thing is a topic that has been beaten to death on this forum. I honestly don't have a firm answer on which transmission is better. I'll give you the quick and dirty. The T5 has pretty small gears in it. So no matter how strong the gears are, they still fall victim to their size. The TKO600 has much bigger gears and bearings, but some argue that the length of the shafts make them vulnerable to flexxing, making them as weak as the Astro T5s. The TKO transmission case is also kind of thin in the front and cracks sometimes (I've cracked two of them). The T56 (6 speed) has the exact same gear size and bearings as the TKO and a better case, but it's heavier and more expensive. I actually do some occasional transmission work here for our business, but I am by no means an expert. If you want good manual transmission advice, talk to Bob or Linda Hanlon of Hanlon Motorsports in Pennsylvania. They are by far the best in the business, and have never steered me wrong. And if you feel they give you good advice, do the right thing and buy a transmission from them. Having one of the higher power Mustangs on this forum, I can tell you that everything breaks when you have a big engine. Get used to fixing things. It doesn't mean you made the wrong choice, or the quality is crap, stuff just breaks.
The engine mounts are up to you. The poly ones are probably good enough. The solid ones won't break, but they will make the car vibrate more. Vibration isn't only bad for you, it's bad for electronics, and it's going to vibrate bolts loose. Serious drag racers who use an engine plate typically spend their pre race time making sure every bolt is tight, because something has rattled loose on the previous race. There is no magic in this world. Every choice has a consequence. We do the best we can.
Kurt
The transmission thing is a topic that has been beaten to death on this forum. I honestly don't have a firm answer on which transmission is better. I'll give you the quick and dirty. The T5 has pretty small gears in it. So no matter how strong the gears are, they still fall victim to their size. The TKO600 has much bigger gears and bearings, but some argue that the length of the shafts make them vulnerable to flexxing, making them as weak as the Astro T5s. The TKO transmission case is also kind of thin in the front and cracks sometimes (I've cracked two of them). The T56 (6 speed) has the exact same gear size and bearings as the TKO and a better case, but it's heavier and more expensive. I actually do some occasional transmission work here for our business, but I am by no means an expert. If you want good manual transmission advice, talk to Bob or Linda Hanlon of Hanlon Motorsports in Pennsylvania. They are by far the best in the business, and have never steered me wrong. And if you feel they give you good advice, do the right thing and buy a transmission from them. Having one of the higher power Mustangs on this forum, I can tell you that everything breaks when you have a big engine. Get used to fixing things. It doesn't mean you made the wrong choice, or the quality is crap, stuff just breaks.
The engine mounts are up to you. The poly ones are probably good enough. The solid ones won't break, but they will make the car vibrate more. Vibration isn't only bad for you, it's bad for electronics, and it's going to vibrate bolts loose. Serious drag racers who use an engine plate typically spend their pre race time making sure every bolt is tight, because something has rattled loose on the previous race. There is no magic in this world. Every choice has a consequence. We do the best we can.
Kurt
great advice man. I'm getting ready for a long weekend and may not be able to respond much tonite or tommorow unless I use my phone
. I will be able to so no biggie. If I have a lot to respond to it's just easier to on the laptop. sounds like i may revisit this and go 363 with my stock block. Or wait, how much can the stock block take NA? Or will that motor be just as susceptible to breaking stuff lol. I mean shouldn't really be an issue. i can see maybe getting another stand and doing a nice 306 or something if i don't sell my current motor and just have 2 to drive. If one breaks I'd still have another to drive till the other gets fixed
I will probably just follow my heart and build the 400 but we'll see. I will make a note to call them monday. And I definitely won't be going solid at all then. I don't want any vibration and I have a nice stereo system in the car and all. I want the car to be nice and strong but still comfortable to drive and take on a nice even 3-4 hour drive one way if I choose to. I wonder if they are related to Pat Hanlon lol. He is the Giants VP of player personel
What's your goal with the car?
Btw biggest you can go on stock block is 347 and the arguable limits are around 500hp and under 6500rpms. If you really just want a nice solid street motor and keep rpms under 6500-I'd just use the stock block. You can even keep some of your existing parts and would probably cost 1/2 - 2/3 as much.
Btw biggest you can go on stock block is 347 and the arguable limits are around 500hp and under 6500rpms. If you really just want a nice solid street motor and keep rpms under 6500-I'd just use the stock block. You can even keep some of your existing parts and would probably cost 1/2 - 2/3 as much.
As previously stated, the 363 only works with an aftermarket block. The biggest advantage to a 351 block is that there is enough material to machine it for a 4 bolt, or splayed bolt main cap. If you don't do that, it's not much stronger than a 302 block.
Kurt
Kurt
Well the splayed cap "thing" is debatable. I've seen a few race motors where the the mains ended up splitting. One of their machinist theorized it actually weakens the mains. Also read on another forum where the consensus was the same. Not everybody agrees with the splayed caps. Also Jim Woods (fordstrokers.com) doesn't splay his f4 blocks and claims they are good to around 7-800hp.
I'm one of "those guys" who always recommends a dart block. For this op,who says he only wants a "street" motor,which he doesn't race and will see 500hp max, I'd recommend a stock block. Dart block is overkill and an extra 3k. Seems excessive to me.
Obviously if he does go Dart, he won't have to worry about the block cracking and should last a very long time. Curious though why you feel that a stock 351 block isn't any stronger(or marginally stronger) than a stock 302 block? The mains are thicker,journals are larger,etc and in a fairly mild n/a build, it will not see excessive rpms or cylinder pressures.
False.
Putting splayed mains in a prodiction 351w block, is an epic waste of money.
The 351w block is MUCH stronger than the 302 block... and MANY of us have been able to make over 1000bhp. Hell, I'm still running all stock internals!
My buddy is going 8.92 on a stock 351 block .030 over . bull
crank rod and piston and victor Jr with a gt40 lower downs upper and 60lb injectors with a self tuned Pms. What you speak here is the truth ! Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate
Not really any etched in stone goals sinceit won't be a track car. I would say to be at 400 or above HP I'd be satisfied but them again maybe 450. After I do all of the figures I will compare and see how much I'd save going 363 vs 400 with the dart block. Overall cost may or may not make a difference
I will strongly consider every angle after figuring up all optionsWell the splayed cap "thing" is debatable. I've seen a few race motors where the the mains ended up splitting. One of their machinist theorized it actually weakens the mains. Also read on another forum where the consensus was the same. Not everybody agrees with the splayed caps. Also Jim Woods (fordstrokers.com) doesn't splay his f4 blocks and claims they are good to around 7-800hp.
I'm one of "those guys" who always recommends a dart block. For this op,who says he only wants a "street" motor,which he doesn't race and will see 500hp max, I'd recommend a stock block. Dart block is overkill and an extra 3k. Seems excessive to me.
Obviously if he does go Dart, he won't have to worry about the block cracking and should last a very long time. Curious though why you feel that a stock 351 block isn't any stronger(or marginally stronger) than a stock 302 block? The mains are thicker,journals are larger,etc and in a fairly mild n/a build, it will not see excessive rpms or cylinder pressures.
If you went 363 8.2 based you need dart block any way . You can't make 363 cubes out of a stock 302 block
Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate
Yes but I could get a used 351 vs $2000 for a dart block
How much HP n Torque can I expect if so?
A "used 351" is not comparable to a dart block in the same sentence when comparing options. A Dart block is vastly superior to the stock blocks on either variation. If your intent to to build a street car, and not push the boundaries of the stock platforms (which it doesn't sound like you intend to) then why even consider the added expense of a Dart based build?
A 5.0 will survive at 450HP. 450 HP in a fox is a lot of power. A 5.7 will add 100 hp to that.
Do people push those boundaries and get away with it? Of course they do. Does that mean that you'll be able to count on that?
Nope.
I had a stock blocked 351 stroked to 393 that routinely saw high 5's in the 1/8 mile. It also saw 5.65......once. How ever much power that engine was making to go that fast in a 3000 pound car I never put on paper,...(probably close to 900) but, the aftermath of a too aggressive tune left me w/ a cracked block, and main bearings, and caps that looked like they were walking to New Orleans.
Hp, and torque potential is directly tied to how it comes. In other words,...N/A, or from some sort of power adder. Boosted applications add torque at a different ratio to a N/A when compared against each other, and torque may come on earlier, and stay a lot longer.
All this goes to say that if you do not intend to force air or nitrous into the motor, your question about "how much" is relative to "how much" you are willing to sacrifice for the top numbers.
a 550 HP big windsor is a cake walk if you put a wheezer on it at very low boost. Properly tuned, it'll be happy to do that routinely probably at a very street friendly 5-5500 RPM. Your "sacrifice" in this scenario is money. Whether you put a centri-SC, or a turbocharger to achieve that, you're gonna need alot of it. A 550 HP big windsor N/A will be a big cammed rumpity-rumpity-rumpity, 93 octane swilling pig that will want to see 6500-7000 RPM to show you those numbers. Big cams, Higher compression, larger injectors, or a big carb makes for a hot, less than enjoyable street driving experience. The sacrifice here is obvious,...
Name your poison.
Last edited:
I was only comparing as to cost difference when I do the comparison. I will reply in greater detail in a few. Tied up at duty.
Sure I'm going to consider doing a 363 with a 351 stock block. I will also consider rather I Wana do a SC later or not so he can build for that. How much can I expect to have HP and torque wise with a 363?
I will be safe and go ahead and do a 351 either way use a 351 block to be safe and maybe for the future also consider having it go ahead and be set up for a supercharger possibly even though I probably won't do it I want to do this motor in it in pretty much be done with it more than likely but who knows also my builder talking about it's going to be set up to where it's going to have nice horsepower and torque down low so you know it's going to be set up the way I want it you know and not have to get all into the car for it to do something so I'm going to kind of have the best of both worlds so but yeah I have decided I'm going to at least use either a 351 stock block or get the dark block and another reason for going with the dark is because the way he is going to build it he doesn't have to use as long a crank I know he knows what he is doing I've been talking to this guy for over a year and he is a nerd gearhead like that engine builder racer so I trust him to build me the absolute best so that's why I'm considering paying more for the dark block being able for him to get the most out of the big board with less crank and not too radical of a cam he designs cams also
***Sigh.....
If you actually said all of that out loud, you'd be out of breath. Two words of advice:
Periods, spell check.
It's a "Dart" block. Not a dark block (unless you paint it black)
When people say 363 they mean a Dart blocked 8.2" deck 5.0 based build. A stock 351 bored .030 (all the bigger you'd want to go) is 357.
The stroker kits available for a stock 351 come in two variations,.... that being a 393, or a 408. Bigger builds require a larger than 4.060 bore, and are better accomplished w/ a Dart block.
If you have someone who you trust emphatically,......why all the hub bub then?
In other words,....why muddy up the water w/ indecision, when your trusted "nerd gearhead" is already advising you as well?
If you actually said all of that out loud, you'd be out of breath. Two words of advice:Periods, spell check.
It's a "Dart" block. Not a dark block (unless you paint it black)
When people say 363 they mean a Dart blocked 8.2" deck 5.0 based build. A stock 351 bored .030 (all the bigger you'd want to go) is 357.
The stroker kits available for a stock 351 come in two variations,.... that being a 393, or a 408. Bigger builds require a larger than 4.060 bore, and are better accomplished w/ a Dart block.
If you have someone who you trust emphatically,......why all the hub bub then?
In other words,....why muddy up the water w/ indecision, when your trusted "nerd gearhead" is already advising you as well?
Haha blame it on me being busy and having to use my phone and text to speech lmfal I will now continue reading the rest in reply***Sigh.....
Periods, spell check.
It's a "Dart" block. Not a dark block (unless you paint it black)
When people say 363 they mean a Dart blocked 8.2" deck 5.0 based build. A stock 351 bored .030 (all the bigger you'd want to go) is 357.
The stroker kits available for a stock 351 come in two variations,.... that being a 393, or a 408. Bigger builds require a larger than 4.060 bore, and are better accomplished w/ a Dart block.
If you have someone who you trust emphatically,......why all the hub bub then?
In other words,....why muddy up the water w/ indecision, when your trusted "nerd gearhead" is already advising you as well?
