Can I use regular stock head bolts with the washers for the 1/2 in holes to put AFR185 heads on an old 302 or are longer bolts and such required.
Afr Head Install Question
- Thread starter rd
- Start date
-
Sponsors (?)
I dunno-
But if you are able ,I'd vote to put head studs in it..
But to actually answer your question,let me ask some knowledgeable people..
@90sickfox @Boosted92LX @95BlueStallion
But if you are able ,I'd vote to put head studs in it..
But to actually answer your question,let me ask some knowledgeable people..
@90sickfox @Boosted92LX @95BlueStallion
Only heads I have swapped first hand are GT40P's. Sorry, but I cannot answer this one for you confidently.
Do to lack of responses and not knowing the answer myself, I would give afr a call, I would think they have a tech line with some one that speaks english, unless you press option 2 the you will get espanyo, sorry for the spelling.
- Dec 19, 2010
- 5,719
- 4,238
- 224
- Mar 2, 2015
- 6,816
- 5,850
- 203
ARP studs. Don't play cheap with the parts that squish your head gasket together. They do make those bushings to change the hole size from 1/2in to 7/16in. I've never seen anyone have problems with them. You don't have to get the block tapped for 1/2 studs....but bigger studs equal stronger clamping force.
Having to pull the motor to send the block to the machine shop is a pain. I've seen people drill and tap a block successfully at home with the motor in the car. However, I've never done it. My block was machined for 1/2in studs by the builder.
Having to pull the motor to send the block to the machine shop is a pain. I've seen people drill and tap a block successfully at home with the motor in the car. However, I've never done it. My block was machined for 1/2in studs by the builder.
Only the modular engines use stretch to yield bolts. I have the factory 89 Mustang Service Manual and it gives torque values and not degrees of turn. Stock bolts may be reused, there is no mention needing to replace the bolts after they have been used. Stock bolts are tightened in 2 steps using the pattern given in the Service manual. 1st pass =55-65 ft/lb, 2nd pass =65-72 ft/lb. Use antiseize under the heads of all bolts and on the threads of the long bolts. The short bolts get the threads coated with Teflon pipe dope or ARP PTFE Sealers 100-9904.
I'll be glad to copy the page and post it if you have any questions.
Jegs has AFR bushings for 78 - for 20 busihings, Summit has TFS bushings $50 for 20 bushings
http://www.jegs.com/p/AFR-Airflow-Research/AFR-Ford-Head-Bolt-and-Bushings/1412521/10002/-1
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51400419
TFS bushing
Here's the handy dandy how to guide...
Cylinder head removal & replacement
Revised 25-Aug-2014 to update parts list
Plan on 3 days to do the job if you haven't done it before.
Day one gets the heads off in 4-6 hours. Remove the A/C compressor mount bolts and move the compressor out of the way. The A/C compressor swings out of the way without disconnecting any of the lines or losing any refrigerant. Mark all the electrical, smog and vacuum lines with tags to help you remember where to re-connect them. If you have a digital camera, take several pictures.
Day two gets all the gasket surfaces scraped off extra clean and the heads dropped off at the machine shop if you are going to have them reconditioned. Time here is another 4-6 hours. Whatever you do, don't skimp on cleaning the gasket surfaces. New gaskets need to seat against bare metal and not the residue left from the old gaskets in order to seal leak free. This is the most time consuming and tiresome part of the job. Look for little things that need to be replaced like the short hose from the thermostat hosing to the water pump, damaged vacuum lines and hose clamps that are rusted or broken.
Day three starts when you get the heads back from the machine shop. This is the time to pick up all the little odd pieces you found needing replacement on your day two inspection/cleanup. Plan on 6-8 hours to reinstall the heads and reconnect everything. Plan on an additional 2 hours to troubleshoot/adjust everything.
Now for some practical tips:
Tools: a good torque wrench is a must have item. A razor blade scraper that holds a single edge razor blade from Home Depot or Ace hardware is another handy thing. Get a Chilton or Haynes shop manual - you'll need it for the bolt torques and patterns. The intake manifold has an especially odd pattern.
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
The bolts are torqued down in a 3 step process.
Step 1 8 ft/lbs
Step 2 16 ft/lbs
Step 3 23-25 ft/lbs
You'll need access to a timing light to set the timing after you re-stab the distributor. Look in the A/C repair section for the fuel line tools. They look like little plastic top hats. You will need the 1/2" & 5/8" ones. The hat shaped section goes on facing the large part of the coupling. Then you press hard on the brim until it forces the sleeve into the coupling and releases the spring. You may need someone to pull on the line while you press on the coupling. Put some motor oil on them when you put the line back together.
Whatever you do, don't skimp on cleaning the gasket surfaces. New gaskets need to seat against bare metal and not the residue left from the old gaskets in order to seal leak free. This is the most time consuming and tiresome part of the job. Look for little things that need to be replaced like the short hose from the thermostat hosing to the water pump, damaged vacuum lines and hose clamps that are rusted or broken.
Put some cardboard in the lifter valley to help catch the gasket scrapings. Have a shop vacuum handy to suck up the scrapings and any coolant that leaked into the lifter valley.
Plan on cutting the thermostat to water pump hose, or removing the thermostat housing. Also plan on removing the distributor to get clearance to remove the intake manifold. Remove #1 spark plug, stick your finger in the spark plug hole and crank. When your finger gets air moving past it, stop cranking. Turn the engine until the timing marks line up with the pointer. Now you can pull the distributor out. Be sure to put a rag or cap in the block where you removed the distributor. It will save you trouble if something falls into the empty distributor hole.
My favorite trick that saves time and effort is the stay in place gasket. Be sure that you scrape (don't use a wire brush) all the old gasket material off, then clean all the surfaces with acetone or MEK.
When the surfaces are clean, use weather strip adhesive on the head to manifold surface, and on the side of the gasket that mates to the head. Follow the instructions on the tube or can and when it gets tacky, press the gasket down on the head.
Clean the area where the rubber rails mount to the block in front and in the rear with more acetone or MEK and do the same trick with the weather strip adhesive that you did to the heads.
Coat the rubber seals and the gasket area around the water passages with Blue Silicone gasket sealer and put it together. Whoopee! no leaks, and no gaskets that shifted out of place.
Get a tube of anti-seize and coat all the bolt threads and under the bolt heads. That will help insure even torque when you tighten the manifold bolts. Plan on re-torqueing them after a week’s worth of driving
The cylinder head bolts are reusable, but some new ARP bolts are a better plan.
Caution!!! Be aware that the ARP bolts have a radiused shank under the bolt head. The ARP washers have a matching radius machined into them. Be sure that the machined radius of the washer is fitted next to the machined radius on the ARP bolt heads. Forget this little fact and you will never get the head bolts to torque down properly.
Coat the underside of all bolt heads with anti seize and the threads of the long bolts. The short bolts thread directly into the water jacket and need a different treatment. Use Teflon Pipe dope on the threads of the short head bolts. It will prevent any coolant seepage from around the threads. You can get the Teflon pipe dope from the hardware stores, Home Depot or Lowes.
Fuel injector seal kits with 2 O rings and a pintle cap (Borg-Warner P/N 274081) are available at Pep Boys auto parts. Cost is about $3-$4 per kit. The pintle caps fit either injectors with a pin sticking out the injector end or 4 with more tiny holes in the injector end. The following are listed at the Borg-Warner site ( BWD - Home ) as being resellers of Borg-Warner parts:
Parts Plus - Premium Auto Parts & Accessories or Auto Value / Bumper to Bumper Quality Parts & Service - Home of the Aftermarket Auto Parts Alliance Group or Tires, Auto Parts Stores, Brakes & Automotive Parts | Pep Boys or Federated Auto Parts - Automotive Aftermarket
Most of the links above have store locators for find a store in your area.
Use motor oil on the O rings when you re-assemble them & everything will slide into place. The gasoline will wash away any excess oil that gets in the wrong places and it will burn up in the combustion chamber.
Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole,
crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer
on the engine block.
The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor
to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.
Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing. If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that if it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.
At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light and start the engine. Set the timing where your car
runs best. Don't forget to disconnect the SPOUT jumper connector when you set the timing, and plug it back
in when you finish.
The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Consumable items:
head gaskets or head gasket kit
Rocker cover gaskets
Upper manifold gasket
Fel Pro 1250 or equal lower manifold gasket set.
Exhaust manifold gaskets.
Short formed hose between thermostat hosing and intake manifold
6 ft 7/64" or 1/8" vacuum hose
2 ft 1/2" heater hose
1 1/2 ft 5/8" heater hose
Blue Silicone sealer
Spray can weather strip adhesive to hold manifold gaskets in place
Acetone or MEK to clean gasket surfaces
1 gallon straight antifreeze (same price as 50/50 mix, but a 90 cent gallon of distilled water makes it 2 gallons at a cheaper price)
1 gallon distilled water
ARP antiseize or equal for the bolts
Teflon Pipe dope
4 each 3/4" hose clamps (spare item in case the old ones are bad)
4 each 1/2" hose clamps (spare item)
Machine shop charges will vary - figure $275-$350 to have heads checked for cracks, cleaned, surfaced, valves ground, valve guides reconditioned, valve springs checked and bad springs replaced.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Wiring & Engine Info Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif
TFI module differences & pin out
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
Fuse box layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Last edited:
Now I am not doubting your experience and your knowledge, but my ford assembly manuel for my 89 gt says the head bolts are torque to yield and are not reuseable. Thats head bolts right?
And in your opinion are studs overkill for na setups?
And in your opinion are studs overkill for na setups?
There is a lot of debate on when Ford actually started using TTY bolts in the 302 OHV. I have personally had half a dozen or more mid/late-80's and earyl-90's HO and non HO 5.0L's apart that were equipped with standard head bolts.....NOT torque to yield. This leads me to believe that the head bolts may have changed somewhere around the mid-90's with the SN95 cars? TTY bolts can generally be identified by its use of a narrow shank. Standard bolts are as beefy, or beefier throughout the shank section than the threaded section. In the case of the RE-use of a standard style bolt, I would not and have not hesitated to use them multiple times on stock rebuilds and have never....EVER had a single issue. However....for a set of high dollar aluminum heads, with added compression, that may see elevated cylinder pressure/temps due to the use of a power adder, the piece of mind associated with spending any extra $50-$100 on a set of ARP fasters can be worth their replacement cost alone.
That being said, I did managed to twist off an ARP bolt inside my current block at the recommended torque after a single reuse. Thankfully, I was able to remove it in one piece....the two halves being held together by a spaghetti strand size sliver of metal. The threads were chased with a tap prior to reassembly and the recommended thread lube was used....it was simply just a defective bolt. So be aware...it can happen to fancy aftermarket bolts, just like the stockers.
That being said, I did managed to twist off an ARP bolt inside my current block at the recommended torque after a single reuse. Thankfully, I was able to remove it in one piece....the two halves being held together by a spaghetti strand size sliver of metal. The threads were chased with a tap prior to reassembly and the recommended thread lube was used....it was simply just a defective bolt. So be aware...it can happen to fancy aftermarket bolts, just like the stockers.
- Dec 19, 2010
- 5,719
- 4,238
- 224
I've seen a lot of conflicting info on the subject. About a year and a half ago some came through here and posted a link to a Ford document stating that the bolts were, in fact torque to yield. I didn't believe it either until I read it. Let me see if I can find it.
- Dec 19, 2010
- 5,719
- 4,238
- 224
Here's a Ford Racing oem long block spec sheet. Go down to torque specs and look at head bolts. Torque to yield.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/53134/Ford-M-6007-F50.html?page=2
@Gearbanger 101 @jrichker
Now, again.. I've read lots of conflicting info on whether this is fact or fiction.. but there is this and other Ford documents I've seen. I realize this is for a crate engine, but I've seen other Ford repair manual docs that say not to reuse those headbolts, they are indeed tty. I've also disassembled numerous engines to find headbolts with stretched threads... So it remains to be kind of like bigfoot. A few photos and 1st hand sightings with statements noone believes.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/53134/Ford-M-6007-F50.html?page=2
@Gearbanger 101 @jrichker
Now, again.. I've read lots of conflicting info on whether this is fact or fiction.. but there is this and other Ford documents I've seen. I realize this is for a crate engine, but I've seen other Ford repair manual docs that say not to reuse those headbolts, they are indeed tty. I've also disassembled numerous engines to find headbolts with stretched threads... So it remains to be kind of like bigfoot. A few photos and 1st hand sightings with statements noone believes.
Last edited:
mikestang63
SN Certified Technician
considering all of us are not building stock engines for the most part, I think the debate is rather moot. Wouldn't catch me reusing stock head bolts regardless. Maybe if you are rebuilding Grandma's 88 Lincoln I'd take the chance, but probably not because of fear they stretched.
Here's what I have straight from the 89 Mustang OEM Service manual
Granted, the last time I actually had the cylinder heads off, I used ARP bolts when I put the heads back on the engine. I ran into the same storm of conflicting information that you are seeing here.
Attachments
Damn, I have that same book and darned if it don't say the same thing!
Once again, I am confused!
I don't recall now where I got my info but you can bet I will look into it.
I changed the head gaskets on my 92 vert and used new head bolts, that maybe where I got it from.
Damn fords, any wonder guys put bow ties in everything
Once again I bow to you and the blue oval gods and beg forgiveness.
Once again, I am confused!
I don't recall now where I got my info but you can bet I will look into it.
I changed the head gaskets on my 92 vert and used new head bolts, that maybe where I got it from.
Damn fords, any wonder guys put bow ties in everything
Once again I bow to you and the blue oval gods and beg forgiveness.
You'll notice though....that engine was a 1995 production engine....which falls right into the theory that Ford went TTY at some point during the switch to the SN95 redesign.Here's a Ford Racing oem long block spec sheet. Go down to torque specs and look at head bolts. Torque to yield.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/53134/Ford-M-6007-F50.html?page=2
@Gearbanger 101 @jrichker
Now, again.. I've read lots of conflicting info on whether this is fact or fiction.. but there is this and other Ford documents I've seen. I realize this is for a crate engine, but I've seen other Ford repair manual docs that say not to reuse those headbolts, they are indeed tty. I've also disassembled numerous engines to find headbolts with stretched threads... So it remains to be kind of like bigfoot. A few photos and 1st hand sightings with statements noone believes.
I guess the only sure fire way to know for sure, is look at them when they're out.
Funny thing is....Grandma's Lincoln, Grandpa's F150, Cousin Eds Econoline, or Joe Blow's fox body. It's all the same engine. Like I said. Aluminum heads or something with a little cylinder pressure behind them would most certainly get new fasteners, but for your average iron head stocker's/GT40/GT40P's, etc....if the stock bolts were in good shape and standard fashion, they'd be going right back in. Its really not a case of saving a few bucks for me. I wouldn't change the stock non torque to yield head bolts to new ones, for the same reason I wouldn't change valve cover bolts, or timing cover bolts if they were still in good shape. It just isn't necessary.
OMG, an awesome response!
To be clear this is a 68 block, with a 78 crank and rods. Iirc have the 1978 donor engine head bolts in this particular engine so they are not torque to yield. Have been used over and over. And so far my nitrous application has not yielded them.
jrichter, an outstanding response. One of the best single descriptions I have seen.
I have changed heads about four times on this block. It was put together with stock 79 heads in 87, then a set of ported 78 heads installed, Then another set of stock heads, then the iron Gt40s that are on it now. Finally time for the AFRS, that I bought in 2005! Iirc I have the washerson the current heads, since they are from a 351.
Real question should have been do the AFRs need longer bolts?
I guess the answer is no.
To be clear this is a 68 block, with a 78 crank and rods. Iirc have the 1978 donor engine head bolts in this particular engine so they are not torque to yield. Have been used over and over. And so far my nitrous application has not yielded them.
jrichter, an outstanding response. One of the best single descriptions I have seen.
I have changed heads about four times on this block. It was put together with stock 79 heads in 87, then a set of ported 78 heads installed, Then another set of stock heads, then the iron Gt40s that are on it now. Finally time for the AFRS, that I bought in 2005! Iirc I have the washerson the current heads, since they are from a 351.
Real question should have been do the AFRs need longer bolts?
I guess the answer is no.
Last edited:
I think it is just good insurance to upgrade. 40 year old bolts with 100's of thousands of heat cycles and millions of combustion cycles....I think they have earned their retirement.
Joe
Joe
Similar threads
