Saleen 05-10 EXTREME tuning/modification questions (not seeing what i expected)

Discussion in 'Special Production' started by 200SICK, Jul 9, 2010.


  1. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    Hey guy, glad to be part of the StangNet Community!

    I am an owner of an 06 E. My stock dyno numbers were 482 cool 455 hot/accurate numbers. My stock blower pulley (in case you didnt already know) is 2.87 from saleen. I have installed the saleen extreme ultimate cold air intake, a full 8-rib conversion with innovative west 15% dampner and a 2.95 blower pulley, and 60 lb injectors. After these mods, it was on the dyno yesterday for 8 hours and the best number i can pull off is 495 hot/accurate. Granted it was 95 degrees yesterday, we still were expecting to see somewhere around 520-550 on a hot day but i just found out today that the pulley is a little bit larger, we thought it was a 3". The guy i purchased my 8-rib from has the same set-up as me (with the exception of a 10% dampner and he built his motor, its not a saleen motor so the compression might be different, and his is an A/T which would show smaller numbers) and with the exact same setup made 16-18 lbs. of boost, 600 rwhp, and ran 10.70 on pump with the saleen blower. Im at 14 lbs, and 495. He claims im losing 100 hp somewhere but JDM says its about accurate numbering. This isnt setting well with me; i was expecting more than a 1/2 lb of boost and 30 hp. I was expecting/hoping to get those gains just with the tune. The car runs good and makes clean pulls, air/fuel is great, there is no belt slip, the timing is at 15 degrees, and the gear ratios look good (no clutch slip).

    Anyway my questions are:

    1) do you guys think this is accurate, or should i be looking at bigger numbers?

    2) i have the option of building an 8 rib pulley to any size, if i have one built at 2.87 (standard saleen sizing) i will have to machine the S/C snout down about the thickness of a penny to make the pulley fit. At what point will i be over-turning the supercharger? (dont forget that i've already added the 15% dampner)

    3) any other suggestions that would help me gain numbers, without going whipple or rebuilding the motor for bigger compression?

    4) what CAN this motor actual handle? i hear "620 safe" from people all the time, but how are guys actaully making numbers like that with the saleen blower? Have you guys heard of 15+ lbs with this supercharger?

    When making minor adjustments to the spark/fuel, the car goes down in HP and up in torque. Right after a pass at 495, we added spark and the car went to 492/501tq when expected to go to about 505 rwhp; kind of odd.

    JDM says i need upgraded vacuum lines, ford racing throttle body, longtubes. I have heard that longtubes dont make a difference other than sound on 3v cars, and the throttle body is a waste of money because the motor already gets enough air. JDM also says that im not going to get much more than what im at, but contrary, i hear about E guys making 600+ all the time with stock set-up, and im over here modifying away. What am i missing here? :shrug:
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  2. Jim D.

    Jim D. Member

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  3. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    yes, i said my stock numbers. On the same Dyno, it was 456 hot/accurate with stock saleen tune/no mods.
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  4. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    Why would you go larger on the pulley?

    Mine was at 464rw. I have upgraded more than you have it seems.

    I have added a few things since then and will be on the dyno 7/13 for a couple of hours. I'll keep you posted here.

    Now the car is over 16psi boost.

    I have-
    roush tensioner
    ported saleen lid
    vacuum line upgrade
    10% overdrive crank pulley
    60# injectors
    autolite hto plugs gapped at .030
    fore precision fuel rails
    ultimate saleen intake
    frpp 62mm tb
    jdm tune
    315/35/20 Nitto NT05 rear tires
    steeda lca's
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  5. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    wow thats interesting. you have an E right? i was told by JDM that they dont recommend more boost than where im at because i will overturn the supercharger...can anyone elaborate on that?

    I went to a larger pulley without knowing that stock was a 2.87. I just got a set of calipers and measured it after JDM told me it was 2.87. We first measured it and it looked like a 3.00. the smallest pulley the guy makes in an 8 rib is 2.95 and he runs 17 lbs on that setup. the difference between 2.87 and 2.95 is MAYBE a 1/2 lb boost.

    i have -
    pypes o/r h
    bosch 60 lb injectors
    saleen ultimate cold air intake
    bgg performace 8 rib conversion
    -2.95 s/c pulley
    -15% over by innovative west
    -rest of pulleys are basically off a ford pickup
    stock tensioner w/ a plate to stop flex
    315/35/20 nitto invo on rear 11" wheels
    steeda lower control arms

    does the ported s/c lid help?
    does the frpp 62 mm tb help?
    vaccuum lines help?

    if those things help, then i will buy all of that stuff and put it on the car. Can where did you get the s/c lid from, JDM?
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  6. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    06 E here also. I was told that I would see 14-14.5psi boost, but the TB and ported lid must have given me the extra 2 or so psi, as now my guage will peg easily to the 16psi mark. You may have a bad boost sending unit also, or a bad connection on it?

    I am completely satisfied with the extra upgrades. Very glad that I did them all together.

    JDM ports the lids so that they fit the FRPP TB opening, they shipped one to me and I used mine as the core.

    One thing I'm curious about is if you had someone else tuning on your car? Meaning, did someone else besides JDM do the tune? Because they know these cars and the Saleen SC setup probably better than anyone else.

    I was told by Jim Jr that the only mods left on mine would be the long tube headers and heat exchanger upgrade, but would only gain maybe 15-20 more HP.

    I will post my results for you to see after wednesdays Dyno session.
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  7. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    What makes you think its the sending unit/connection? im at 14 lbs and 495 rwhp without the lid and tb, thats about right as far as numbers go; Im just not seeing 16 psi/550+ like i thought (sounds like i am right on the money, i just need to buy the lid and tb, and vacuum lines and hope for 2 psi).

    Yes i am having someone else tune my car. I have talked to many people, even saleen tuners, and everyone has told me that mail-order tunes are a bad idea. They all say that every car needs to be put on a dyno, no matter how "perfect" they think a tune is (nothign against JDM, i have a lot of respect for them). My tuner is a very good tuner and is very well known for doing big things. He just built a twin turbo supercharged GT500 that ran 8.61 at 16 psi. The tuner is not the problem; maybe i just need to do the s/c lid and tb like you said.

    I am glad you answered my next question about how they port the lid opening to fit the frpp tb.

    I am keeping every part from this car so i can put it back to stock, so i think i would purchase the core and not send mine back so i can have my stock setup still.

    also, please keep me posted as to how your car dyno's, now im curious.
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  8. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    oh and btw my PSI numbers are not coming from my gauge, they are coming from the dyno sheet. Its hard to read the gauge...you might not really be at 16 psi either, you will find out when you dyno!


    what was the purpose of the fuel rails?
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  9. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    I do know where the true psi numbers come from btw...:) I never meant any disrespect towards your tuner, getting defensive AND asking for suggestions won't help you any either.

    And the boost sending units are famous for not working correctly, as I have already replaced mine, as well have several other Saleen owners.

    Any aftermarket rails are better than the stockers, especially when you want to go over 650-700bhp. I have a much better flow of fuel to the passenger side rail and extra ports for a pressure guage, plus they look better:nice:

    I have spoken to a few other owners and their so-called mail order tunes from JDM have been mostly spot on after checking on a dyno. There's actually a reason why they take awhile getting the tunes done because Jim SR builds each one as per the owners and cars needs.

    The ones I'm afraid of are the canned ones from parts suppliers that try and use the same one over and over for everyones car.

    Sounds like you are on the right track, let us know if you gain any significant numbers with where you are heading next with your upgrades and mods.

    Later,
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  10. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    sorry if my post came across as if i took offense to what you said, it wasnt like that at all, and i didnt mean to tell you something that you already knew. I was genuinely asking you what made you think it is the sending unit if my guage and the dyno both show 14 psi/495 rhp, and my followup post was generally speaking, i was not directing anything towards you even though i used the word "you". My appologies Mike!

    I have already replaced the sending unit and boost gauge at one point on the car so i am familiar with that problem, along with the 95 other problems with the E's. Before my warranty was up, Saleen replaced a couple blowers, a rear end, 2 cluthes (i now have a mccleod twin disc), and a bunch of other little odds and ends.

    The sending unit just tells the gauge what PSI the blower is at right? example: if the gauge says 12 psi and the sending unit is bad, the s/c could be potentially making 15 psi right? but the rwhp number backs up the 14 psi # because if it was higher than that, so would my hp.

    I didnt know JDM went that far with every individual tune, i was told that they just make tunes and send them out to the customers, not specifically for that car, just close enough for all their saleen customers. I guess that could have been some tuners trying to sell me to get the job! again, no disrespect toward JDM either, i just chose to keep my business local.

    i will talk to my tuner this week about all these options and fuel rails. Thank you for all your insight, you've been very helpful so far!

    post up your numbers after you dyno, i am excited to hear what you have.

    PS - what was your boost at before that list of mods, 12-12.5?
    #10
  11. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    SOOOOO?????? what was the verdict? i am very curious to see what it did...
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  12. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    The verdict is coming. Just got home and reviewing the recording.:)
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  13. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    :eek: reviewing the recording, what recording? ... DUDE, you're killing me lol. What was your tune done on, dynojet right? .... so anxious for your rwhp/tq, put something up, just tease me :D

    I picked up my car today from the shop. I had to check the vin number because i thought i was driving someone elses car :rlaugh:. I have a 500 mile, extra fragile break in period on my clutch and once that's done, time to start seing how it handles. We put my stock H pipe back on and took off my offroad H, and got the car within 7 rwhp as the o/r h :nice:. As of now, the car broke over 500 for a couple of passes but the 490/500tq dyno sheet, as i was told, is a rock solid TRUE number. i was at 497/502tq (again a TRUE number) with o/r H, so for all you guys that think they are power adders, SAVE YOUR MONEY! I think i could hit roughly 515 on a nice cool night instead of this torturous heat. im psyched!
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  14. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    looks like we are chasing the same numbers. What A/F mix are you set at?

    Dynos can be a humbling experience. Ran the extreme on a Dyno Dynamics Dynomometer made in Australia. It can do all wheel drive vehicles also. the owner says his dyno will humble you as he has four rollers and it gives a 25% drivetrain loss from crank horsepower, but it gives a more accurate reading in real world numbers as there is not a huge drum free wheeling and he can dial in better for street and track conditions.

    It was over 110deg in Scottsdale today and my intake air temps were around 160-170deg

    We gained 44.2rwhp after making some adjustments, and 61 ft pounds of torque.

    Boost stayed the same at about 15.5psi, not too bad for as warm as it was.

    The first runs are marked in red
    440hp
    470Tq
    Air/Fuel 11.1 to 11.5

    Last run after retune marked in blue
    484.2hp
    521Tq
    Air/Fuel 12.1 to 12.5

    Here are the graphs-

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][/quote]

    [​IMG]
    #14
  15. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    I will post my dynosheet in a little while with a/f on it. Air is low on purpose.

    Somone please correct me if i am wrong, but i found a guy that posted some 275ish numbers and had a run on a dynojet and a run on dyno dynamics. the dynamics was about 23% less power...does that hold true all the way throughout roughly? If you add 23% to 484 (assuming you ran dynojet comparing to me) that would put you at 595whp...CAN'T be right.

    Now i am on a mission to find out the differences between you and I mike so i can find out where i really should be at. What vehicle weight did your company enter into the dyno? because guys can fudge numbers by subtracting weight from dyno run.

    I have a question. you said you gaind 44 whp after adjustments, and the first run was at 440/471. That was with your bolt ons already on the car. Your original 464 number, was that on a dynojet? (more than likely you paid for the original saleen dyno sheet right?)

    Your thoughts?
    #15
  16. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    PS - my tuner said he had a hell of a time tuning the car with the 900hp MAF. He said he will never tune another car with that CAI again. He said it is a quality build and nice looking product, but a tuning nightmare.

    The problem is that the MAF is rated for a 900whp car and has volts from 1-5. He said at my best run im at 3.2 volts and i should be at about 5 volts, which makes it very hard for him to tune. He said if i do anything more to my car, he wants to send the MAF back to proair and have it re-scaled before he tunes the car.
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  17. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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  18. mikebna

    mikebna Member

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    You are correct on several points, the numbers on this dyno are real world numbers meaning that on this particular dyno it is accurate in all gears and speeds, BUT it really is more like 25% less than a Dynojet or Mustang Dyno, according to Richard who owns Dyno Comp and tuned my car. I beat the crap out of a 08 Bullitt that was tuned and upfitted with a few thousand dollars in mods at their shop last year, my friend who owns the car had his sheet and it showed he was at 474rwhp after. I pulled on him several times from different speeds and would leave him like he was standing still, needless to say he was not happy. That makes me think that I had quite a bit more HP and TQ then he did. I also outweigh him by quite a bit And had my wife in the car, and tools and chairs.


    I was actually the first one to purchase the original sheet from Mike when he put them up for sale to the public.

    Not sure what the weight thing was on the Dyno Dynamics or if its even needed because very few correction factors like that are used when you use this dyno. Dyno Comp in Scottsdale is known to tune cars and out run many cars at the track and street that claim to have much higher HP numbers from standard dynos. He can tune in about any gear and doesn't have to hold the car at max rpms wot for very long and gets better accuracy. None of this 4th gear 1:1 ratio stuff that the dynojets prefer because of the larger drum turning under the rear wheels and then kind of going into a free spin after a bit.

    Thanks for starting this thread, do you ever go the S197FORUMS ? I know they can be aholes at times but I have gotten some good info from them.

    I am being told that my A/F is maxed for my car at 12-12.1 I had a great drive home from Scottsdale yesterday but my IAT was at 175deg so I couldn't get into boost much, plus it was about 115deg down there.

    Later,
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  19. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    Mike, how many degrees of timing is your tuner running you at?
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  20. 200SICK

    200SICK New Member

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    Check this link out from LS1Tech. These guys have some good comparison's/thoughts regarding dynojet/dyno dynamics. According to these guys, making passes with the same car, in the same city, in very similar weather conditions, the DD is accurately about 10-12% lower reading than DJ, which would make a lot more sense for the sake of this thread. That would mean that you would run somewhere around 550 on a dynojet (worth finding out for about $100). Some tuners on ls1tech even had reports of DD showing lower readings, and/or only 10-20 hp differences between the two.

    Does Anyone own a Dyno Dynamics Dyno? - Page 2 - LS1TECH
    #20

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