1" drop spindle, '70 drum style?

[70vert]

Hey all,

I've got an issue (or two) that a 1" drop spindle would be perfect for. I've got the '70 drum spindle, with Baer discs and a 17x8 4.75" BS Coy's C-67 wheel on. Oh, and Unique Performance coilovers. The problem is that the 4.75" BS, while ideal for most Mustang applications, is very close to hitting my UCA "knuckle", and in fact does scrape slightly under very hard braking, when (I assume) the spindle flexes. A 1" drop spindle would get that UCA out of the way but still not put my tie rod ends in danger of touching the wheel/tire.

The other issue is that with the amount I've lowered the front, the coilovers are almost at the end of their adjustment (fully extended), and that lowers my initial spring rate - I want it stiffer up front. A drop spindle would allow me to tighten up the coilover a bit.

So, anyone got a source for this? My 4-wheel Baers give me outstanding stopping power, but when I hit them hard, scrapey scrape scrape on the front right wheel . . .

Also, a drop spindle should help lower the roll center, avoid any bumpsteer issues, and give a better scrub radius . . . right?

thanks in advance Stangnet!

 

[bnickel]

i would certainly agree that a drop spindle is needed in the aftermarket for the early mustangs but as of yet no one has stepped up to the plate. at one time Degins was considering it but i don't know if he still is. also i've noticed that the UP coiloves now have a different design than yours, basically they have turned the ball joint cup upside down from what yours are, it may be that they found out the original design was flawed and that's why they changed it. if i were you i'd give them a call and complain a LOT, maybe they will send you a pair of the newer design arms.

 

[degins]

i would certainly agree that a drop spindle is needed in the aftermarket for the early mustangs but as of yet no one has stepped up to the plate. at one time Degins was considering it but i don't know if he still is. also i've noticed that the UP coiloves now have a different design than yours, basically they have turned the ball joint cup upside down from what yours are, it may be that they found out the original design was flawed and that's why they changed it. if i were you i'd give them a call and complain a LOT, maybe they will send you a pair of the newer design arms.

OK, OK... What exactly is the market demanding. A dropped 70 drum based spindle and hub using disc brake brackets? How much drop? A standard (?) 1970 hub in Iron, or steel, Aluminum? Which bracket? Which caliper? I would not consider just making the spindles.

I would need to make at LEAST 100 sets to get my manufacturers interested. I need to know that the market extends beyond a couple of performance enthusist on the forums. Heck, I need to see greater enthusism on the forums. The last time this issue came up, and I ask for a sign of interest, we got 2 replies from the membership. I need to get a clear idea of the market before I invest $5000 in model fees and a lot more in production.

My inclination is driver-originality, so I need the membership's help in identifying the product that the performance crowd wants.

My contribution is that I can manufacture them for sale at a resonable cost.

I don't want to sound self important, but your responses will tell the tale!

Dennis

 

[70vert]

thanks for the replies! I would say Steel for improved strength. I would probably order one even if my problem was solved - I understand that a drop spindle (meaning, a spindle mounted higher on the arm and therefore dropping the car) would give other benefits, as I mentioned above, beyond just the clearance issue.

I would tally up all the interest from the following places to see if it's viable:

1. Corner-carvers.com
2. Stangnet
3. Vintage-mustang.com
4. Pro-touring.com (might be the best)

any others I'm missing? It seems that the '70-73 drum style is what most of the brake upgrades go off of, and it is a desirable upgrade to earlier models, so you could get some interest from those guys as well . . .

 

[bnickel]

i would say base it off the 70-73 drum spindle as 70 vert mentioned and simply relocate the up 1" or 2", your choice, though i'm sure the many would prefer a 2" or you could simply split the difference and do a 1.5" drop. i wouldn't worry about doing any kind of steering arm relocation as some have mentioned, simply offer 1 product and that's it. not everyone does a rack and pinion and most that do are well aware of the drawbacks in turning radius.

a 1" or 2" drop (or as i said split the diff at 1.5") by moving the spindle pin location up on the spindle by the approriate amount and make it so that it can use any of the aftermarket brake kits designed for 65-73 drum brake spindles. use the 70-73 spindle pin (same as granada) and be done with it. i've thought long and hard about using a disc brake style spindle but the problems associated with relocating the brake bracket mount would be difficult to over come. the 65-73 drum spindles all use the same mounting locations and it would be much easier to move the mounting location of the drum spindle up since it is in the same location as the spindle pin. it would definitely to be made of steel as many people would want to opentrack their cars with this setup.

that's the best advice i can think of if you really want to consider it further.

also post it at 69stang.com, and i can even put up a sticky poll over there since i'm a mod there. i'd bet 2BaV8 would put up a sticky poll here as well, if you shoot him a pm if you really want to gauge interest. leave it up for a while so it doesn't get buried in the forum and you should get more responses than last time

 

[bnickel]

i would say base it off the 70-73 drum spindle as 70 vert mentioned and simply relocate the up 1" or 2", your choice, though i'm sure the many would prefer a 2" or you could simply split the difference and do a 1.5" drop. i wouldn't worry about doing any kind of steering arm relocation as some have mentioned, simply offer 1 product and that's it. not everyone does a rack and pinion and most that do are well aware of the drawbacks in turning radius.

a 1" or 2" drop (or as i said split the diff at 1.5") by moving the spindle pin location up on the spindle by the approriate amount and make it so that it can use any of the aftermarket brake kits designed for 65-73 drum brake spindles. use the 70-73 spindle pin (same as granada) and be done with it. i've thought long and hard about using a disc brake style spindle but the problems associated with relocating the brake bracket mount would be difficult to over come. the 65-73 drum spindles all use the same mounting locations and it would be much easier to move the mounting location of the drum spindle up since it is in the same location as the spindle pin. it would definitely to be made of steel as many people would want to opentrack their cars with this setup.

that's the best advice i can think of if you really want to consider it further.

also post it at 69stang.com, and i can even put up a sticky poll over there since i'm a mod there. i'd bet 2BaV8 would put up a sticky poll here as well, if you shoot him a pm. if you really want to gauge interest leave it up for a while so it doesn't get buried in the forum and you should get more responses than last time

 

[brianj5600]

Adjusting ride hieght will not stiffen the suspension. All that does is move the end of the spring higher on the shock body, which lengthens the distance from the bottom of the spring to the lower shock eye.

 

[Rusty67]

Adjusting ride hieght will not stiffen the suspension. All that does is move the end of the spring higher on the shock body, which lengthens the distance from the bottom of the spring to the lower shock eye.

Is there no such thing as a progressive rate coil over spring ? I've never heard of one myself so assuming he has them might be assuming the non-existent ?

 

[70vert]

you know, you're right.

The spring effectively stays the same length, but lowering the car just compresses the shock a little more, since the shock is attached to the threaded lower body. Good point . . .

Adjusting ride hieght will not stiffen the suspension. All that does is move the end of the spring higher on the shock body, which lengthens the distance from the bottom of the spring to the lower shock eye.

 

[69gmachine]

My vote is still to shorten the steering arm 1" at the same time. Yes the market is limited when you do a modified spindle of any kind, and maybe there are two different groups of potential buyers, but I think the r&p crowd is growing, and the people willing to put in a rack, are also more likely to be using big wheels and need the clearance a 1" drop would give. Anyway, I'll order 10 sets if you do both the 1" shorter arm and lower 1" (not 2), retaining the same overall height from lower bj to upper bj. I would prefer the disc style, but I suppose that's not a make or break deal.

 

[Hack]

I think the biggest market for the drop spindle is the restoration crowd, since they don't want to drill into their shock towers. Possibly the bigger spenders would like it too. I did a Shelby style drop on mine and fabricated shims so the ball joints wouldn't bind. Then I cut the springs a little. I really like the way my car handles, and I haven't even done the roller perches, etc. yet.

I'm really glad Degins is out there. From what I've seen his Granada style spindle is great! I hope there will be the market for more Mustang aftermarket parts! Unfortunately I'm too much of a cheap bas***d to spend the bucks.

 

[bnickel]

i would be perfectly happy with a 1" drop spindle and no shorter steering arm and i have a TCP rack in the garage waiting to go (probably on the next project, though) a lowered spindle would go along way to improving the geometry of the early stang suspension and would also allow for a wider rim up front with less chance of rubbing thereby making for a better scrub radius which will inprove the steering effort though it may not help much with turning radius. if the spindle is beefy enough one could always modify the spindle themselves if they felt the need. just relocate the mounting point for the tie rod an inch further up the steering arm. Degins doen't really need to go to the expense of designing that feature in. i'm not saying that it wouldn't be beneficial to those of us with power racks but it's not crucial and would probably be considered an unnecessary expense to Degins that would translate to higher prices for us. personally, i can live without the relocated steering arm because if the part costs too much i won't be able to afford it.

 

[69gmachine]

If there was enough sales volume, the price would stay low. The reason I'm willing to buy in volume is to justify the expense of the development and generate some volume sales to keep the prices reasonable. Of course I can't use 10 sets, and intend to re-sell them, which I'm convinced won't be a problem. I could have a custom set made just for me, but I believe there are a lot of folks who could benefit from a dedicated spindle design. I plan to build at least one other car with my front suspension design, and hope to sell my stuff at considerably less than the Mustangs Plus kit that is very similar. I could also mock up the whole thing if that would help.

 

[degins]

If there was enough sales volume, the price would stay low. The reason I'm willing to buy in volume is to justify the expense of the development and generate some volume sales to keep the prices reasonable. Of course I can't use 10 sets, and intend to re-sell them, which I'm convinced won't be a problem. I could have a custom set made just for me, but I believe there are a lot of folks who could benefit from a dedicated spindle design. I plan to build at least one other car with my front suspension design, and hope to sell my stuff at considerably less than the Mustangs Plus kit that is very similar. I could also mock up the whole thing if that would help.

I understand that the consensus is for a drum type spindle (disc type would be very difficult) using a bracket and hub.

I need to know the consensus on the hub configuration? Do you want a standard 70 iron hub, a steel one, an aluminum one, or something else. Also, which brackets and calipers would apply. I'm not interested in supplying the spindles alone, my main business is kits.

 

[69gmachine]

Aluminum hub and brake bracket for a PBR caliper. The cc distance is the same for the Vette/Baer caliper as it is for the Cobra, but the V/B caliper is designed for a 1.25" rotor, which is much less prone to cracking than the stock 1.1" Ford rotor.

 

[bnickel]

I understand that the consensus is for a drum type spindle (disc type would be very difficult) using a bracket and hub.

I need to know the consensus on the hub configuration? Do you want a standard 70 iron hub, a steel one, an aluminum one, or something else. Also, which brackets and calipers would apply. I'm not interested in supplying the spindles alone, my main business is kits.

an aluminum 70 drum style hub would be awesome. would you be doing kits like you have now where you can get like spindles and hubs seperately as well as complete kits? an option for just spindles and hubs would be awesome so if someone wanted to use say, the big lincoln/t-bird 4 piston calipers and 12"x1.25" rotors to fit inside 15" wheels or an aftermarket baer kit with 13" cobra rotors and PBR calipers they would be able to do that as well as whatever you end up using, it would be nice to have that choice. personally i really like my 15" wheels and would prefer to keep them as oppposed to having to buy 17" wheels.

what i would like to have would actually be a stock style slotted rotor with a stock style 4 piston kelsey hayes caliper, or an aluminum version like SSBC sells, that still fits within my 15" wheels. ideally i would be able to use the stock splash shields and caliper brackets as well. i believe the slotted granada rotors you sell would work with the 4 piston K/H calipers which would be good as well.

actually, i think using the slotted granada rotor on the 70 drum style spindle with a 1" drop and stock 67 style K/H calipers, brackets and shields might be a pretty good low cost option for a stock looking and performing system, yet still be able to take advantage of the better geometry afforded by the 1" drop spindle.

i think i mentioned it before, but if you wanted to do the relocated tie rod location the boss could easily be cast into the same spindle and just machined differently allowing you to save some of the cost of designing and casting a seperate piece. basically all you would have to do is design a seperate boss into the spindle 1" closer to the centerline of the spindle. i've seen a stock granada spindle modified in this fashion but strength would be a concern without a cast in boss.

personally, i think that most people who buy a rack and pinion conversion kit are aware that they will lose some turning radius but the end result is worth the trade off so i don't really think that relocating the tie rod is a critical point to consider but it might be worth investigating.

quick question, where in Texas are you located? i'm in west texas if you're close maybe we could get together and go over the ideas.

 

[degins]

bnickel,
I presume that an Aluminum hub is preferable because of its lighter weight. I think it would need to be machined from billet. Is it worth 2-3 times as much as a cast iron or steel hub?

I would offer the parts separately, but I am confident that most buyers would prefer a kit. I am located in Austin. I would like to start working with the Austin area Mustang owners Club. If anyone is affiliate with then, I'd like to speak about trying out new applications.

 

[70vert]

I would go for whatever is produced (separate parts or a kit) that gives the 1" drop. Beggars can't be choosers, right?

I'm in the club that has done the Baer brake upgrade that came with a new hub, and I'm sure I've got some company in the restomod community, to give you an idea of numbers. Steering arm relocation not a big deal for me - I already have a shortened steering radius from R&P, but if anything can be done to improve that so much the better.

Whatever satisfies the largest amount of people to increase sales volume, of course.

I'm just fortunate enough to have as standard the same spindles that everyone is basing their brake kits off of, heh heh.

 

[bnickel]

bnickel,
I presume that an Aluminum hub is preferable because of its lighter weight. I think it would need to be machined from billet. Is it worth 2-3 times as much as a cast iron or steel hub?

I would offer the parts separately, but I am confident that most buyers would prefer a kit. I am located in Austin. I would like to start working with the Austin area Mustang owners Club. If anyone is affiliate with then, I'd like to speak about trying out new applications.

the aluminum hub would make for less rotating mass and that's about it really, again this is one those "extras" that isn't truly necessary.

actually, i think just typed myself into what should be a really good kit. use the 70 drum style spindle with the 1" drop, use the stock 67 K/H calipers and mounting brackets and dust shields. for an ugrade of that kit use a billet aluminum hub, and stock 67 style rotors, a billett aluminum mounting bracket, stock shields and aluminum SSBC calipers. if you go with the dual tie rod boss then you can have another choice to add to the list. and this spindle should use most all of the aftermarket brake kits on the market that are designed to be used with stock drum spindles from 65-73.

when i sell my mustang, i'll be getting a 69 cougar that has 4 wheel manual drums that will absolutely have to go. i've thought long and hard about using one of your granada kits, but i really dislike the granada caliper and mounting bracket. if you did a kit as i described above i would definitely buy a kit from you for it. i might even pony up and get the aluminum upgrade stuff as well.

 

[Blue Oval Man]

Hey Degins, bring out a steel spindle with a 1" drop and a steering arm relocation and I will be first in line.