100% stock motor+cam opinion!!!

[LaserRed01GT]

Not flaming but I rarely if ever have seen VT Stage 1's hit the magical 300 mark w stock heads..I put down 303/318 w the 2's

I think you need to read this thread again. Nobody ever said anything about busting the 300 mark.

 

[Jackie Chan]

I think you need to read this thread again. Nobody ever said anything about busting the 300 mark.

read your f'ing posts again, you stated a stage 2 cam would not make more power on a stock head than a stage 1 and you are WRONG.

why is it when i pop into tech over here every so often these noob guys are post whoring it up giving out bad info??

 

[LaserRed01GT]

read your f'ing posts again, you stated a stage 2 cam would not make more power on a stock head than a stage 1 and you are WRONG.

why is it when i pop into tech over here every so often these noob guys are post whoring it up giving out bad info??

No you are wrong, and I have read most of your posts on this board and there is one common denominator with all of your posts....you are constantly being corrected.

Like I already said, in most cases a stock headed motor will show greater gains and will perform better with Stage 1 cams than a Stage 2 cam on that same stock headed motor. Don't believe me, call VT or MPH. You are just showing all of us that you don't know much about camshaft and cylinder head flow dynamics. Bigger cams do not always make more power, especially on a stock 4.6 head.

There is an emissions mask(swirl dam) within the combustion chamber of a stock 4.6 2V head. Stage 1 cams take this into account as just a part of the chosen grind. The increased duration, lift, and overlap of the Stage 2 cams is not optimal for working with the stock heads. The increased flow/velocity off the seat of the Stage 2's would induce excessive vortices within the CC and would keep the Stage 2 cam from making ideal power on a stock head especially in the low/mod RPM range under load.

Stage 2's are meant for a ported head. The deck of new cylinder heads is always milled(roughly .010") to make the deck is "true" as so the head gasket will seal as good as possible. How much they are milled will effect the quench height and consequently the SCR. Stage 2's are ground to optimally work with this reduced quench height.

I'd watch who you call a noob. There are plenty of technically savvy guys on this board, and I haven't read one single post from you lending any competent technical advice. As for my knowledge and expereince with these motors, there are plenty on here who can vouch for me.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

No you are wrong, and I have read most of your posts on this board and there is one common denominator with all of your posts....you are constantly being corrected.

Like I already said, in most cases a stock headed motor will show greater gains and will perform better with Stage 1 cams than a Stage 2 cam on that same stock headed motor. Don't believe me, call VT or MPH. You are just showing all of us that you don't know much about camshaft and cylinder head flow dynamics. Bigger cams do not always make more power, especially on a stock 4.6 head.

There is an emissions mask(swirl dam) within the combustion chamber of a stock 4.6 2V head. Stage 1 cams take this into account as just a part of the chosen grind. The increased duration, lift, and overlap of the Stage 2 cams is not optimal for working with the stock heads. The increased flow/velocity off the seat of the Stage 2's would induce excessive vortices within the CC and would keep the Stage 2 cam from making ideal power on a stock head especially in the low/mod RPM range under load.

Stage 2's are meant for a ported head. The deck of new cylinder heads is always milled(roughly .010") to make the deck is "true" as so the head gasket will seal as good as possible. How much they are milled will effect the quench height and consequently the SCR. Stage 2's are ground to optimally work with this reduced quench height.

I'd watch who you call a noob. There are plenty of technically savvy guys on this board, and I haven't read one single post from you lending any competent technical advice. As for my knowledge and expereince with these motors, there are plenty on here who can vouch for me.

... I'm sure you just confused some people with this. Some people must learn the hard way though... Hmm.... "stage 20 cam is bigger than stage 3... must make more power..."

I have personally seen too many cars lately with $1,000's in over the top mods (like a full race ported head and a t66 on a sr20det *2.0L 4banger for those not in the know*) when they still have a stock bottom end and fuel system....
Then they get pissed when I could only make 320hp out of their car. "But this turbo is good to 500..."

If none of the following stood out as being blatently wrong, you are one of these people.

 

[Jackie Chan]

No you are wrong, and I have read most of your posts on this board and there is one common denominator with all of your posts....you are constantly being corrected.

Like I already said, in most cases a stock headed motor will show greater gains and will perform better with Stage 1 cams than a Stage 2 cam on that same stock headed motor. Don't believe me, call VT or MPH. You are just showing all of us that you don't know much about camshaft and cylinder head flow dynamics. Bigger cams do not always make more power, especially on a stock 4.6 head.

There is an emissions mask(swirl dam) within the combustion chamber of a stock 4.6 2V head. Stage 1 cams take this into account as just a part of the chosen grind. The increased duration, lift, and overlap of the Stage 2 cams is not optimal for working with the stock heads. The increased flow/velocity off the seat of the Stage 2's would induce excessive vortices within the CC and would keep the Stage 2 cam from making ideal power on a stock head especially in the low/mod RPM range under load.

Stage 2's are meant for a ported head. The deck of new cylinder heads is always milled(roughly .010") to make the deck is "true" as so the head gasket will seal as good as possible. How much they are milled will effect the quench height and consequently the SCR. Stage 2's are ground to optimally work with this reduced quench height.

I'd watch who you call a noob. There are plenty of technically savvy guys on this board, and I haven't read one single post from you lending any competent technical advice. As for my knowledge and expereince with these motors, there are plenty on here who can vouch for me.

i guess every single stock headed 2v with stage 2 cams has made that has made more power than similarly modded stage 1 cars are just flukes, flukes that consistently made more power. your speculation must out weigh the real world results.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

... I'm sure you just confused some people with this. Some people must learn the hard way though... Hmm.... "stage 20 cam is bigger than stage 3... must make more power..."

I have personally seen too many cars lately with $1,000's in over the top mods (like a full race ported head and a t66 on a sr20det *2.0L 4banger for those not in the know*) when they still have a stock bottom end and fuel system....
Then they get pissed when I could only make 320hp out of their car. "But this turbo is good to 500..."

If none of the following stood out as being blatently wrong, you are one of these people.

It's about damn time you chimed in. And yep, some just have to learn the hard way. That's ok, the internal combustion motor God's only want a select few in the know anyhow.

 

['03GTinFLA]

Did some searching on VT's forum and it seems like they recommend Stage 2's over Stage 1's if you can do the valvesprings for the 2's. ANd no it's not because I'm selling stage 2's. I did my research before i bought the 2's and HP is why I chose them over Stage 1's.
Quoted from Jim himself about a '99 with some bolt on's and no headwork, "Stage2 n/a's if you plan on changing the valvesprings, stage1 n/a if you don't want to change springs." and after asked about RWHP, "~20-25rwhp peak to peak, but after 4000rpm you'll see gains as much as 35rwhp+ over the stock cams. The stage2's also love spray. They'd be your best bet, if you don't mind changing the valvesprings."
Another thread about "mostly stock engine and what cams?" To which Scott from VT replied, "stage2's with a spring upgrade. they luv giggly gas. Totally streetable. No noticable lose down low at all."
And here's all I could find about his opinion on Stage 1's. Again from Scott at VT, "Stage 1's work well, don't require springs, but its recommended. I have no idea of your mechanical ability, so I can't really say how hard they are to install. If you're mechanically sound, its not bad at all. If you don't know how to put gas in your car..... you could be in trouble"
No flaming intended. I like discussion threads like these. I don't build engines so I can't tell you about swirls dams and stuff but so I listen to what "those in the know" say. So I look to Jim and Scott from VT.
BTW, long time no see Jackie and why do all your threads turn into flaming fun.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

Yes, valvesprings change everything. The stock springs have a very low spring rate, seat pressure (132 lb open), and experience coil bind at approximately 1.035"(solid height). The stock springs have a installed height of 1.574" so that means coild bind will occur at roughly .539" of lift. Typically on a street motor you want at least .020" clearance from coil bind. So the stock springs should really only be used on a cam that has a total valve lift of less than .519" of lift.

Better valve springs allow a higher lift camshaft, and they allow better control of the valve with the increased duration and more aggressive ramp rates and lobe profile. Better valve control equals better power.

 

[Jackie Chan]

Did some searching on VT's forum and it seems like they recommend Stage 2's over Stage 1's if you can do the valvesprings for the 2's. ANd no it's not because I'm selling stage 2's. I did my research before i bought the 2's and HP is why I chose them over Stage 1's.
Quoted from Jim himself about a '99 with some bolt on's and no headwork, "Stage2 n/a's if you plan on changing the valvesprings, stage1 n/a if you don't want to change springs." and after asked about RWHP, "~20-25rwhp peak to peak, but after 4000rpm you'll see gains as much as 35rwhp+ over the stock cams. The stage2's also love spray. They'd be your best bet, if you don't mind changing the valvesprings."
Another thread about "mostly stock engine and what cams?" To which Scott from VT replied, "stage2's with a spring upgrade. they luv giggly gas. Totally streetable. No noticable lose down low at all."
And here's all I could find about his opinion on Stage 1's. Again from Scott at VT, "Stage 1's work well, don't require springs, but its recommended. I have no idea of your mechanical ability, so I can't really say how hard they are to install. If you're mechanically sound, its not bad at all. If you don't know how to put gas in your car..... you could be in trouble"
No flaming intended. I like discussion threads like these. I don't build engines so I can't tell you about swirls dams and stuff but so I listen to what "those in the know" say. So I look to Jim and Scott from VT.
BTW, long time no see Jackie and why do all your threads turn into flaming fun.

one of those quotes is from a post on MD and it was about a totally stock gt with stage 2's, flowmasters and an mph tune. it put down close to 260rwhp with no losses anywhere and made 50+ rwhp more close to 6k rpms.

tony whetstone(ffw streetstang champ) had a stock headed 2v that picked up close to 40rwhp with boltons putting down right over 300rwhp when he add stage 2s



if you are changing cams, change the springs, put in the cams that will make more power the first time and call it a day. have a plan for your car from the beginning and spend the money once. dont budget because it never works out in the end

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

I look at it this way...
A t70 is the same price as a stage 2 cam...



I am willing to bet a case of beer that I can make more power out of a stg1 cam than a stg2 cam on a completely stock car.

Why?

Because I degree the damn thing...

Attention to detail people... Cams don't just "drop right in" and operate at 100%
They get close... but not right on. Also, every car is different.

On that note, I would suggest the stg 2 cams....
Because everyone knows your not gunna stop at just the cams.

 

[hotmustang331]

^not to mention every dyno is different.

First off, from what iv SEEN the stg 2 cams make a few more HP way up top over the stg 1s.

BUT I think laser red is right here when you actually get down to it...take a look at this, here is why.

A. VT stg 2 cams are almost ALWAYS degreed while MOST VT stg 1 cams are not
B. EVERY set of VT stg 2 cams have aftermarket valve springs...MOST VT stg 1 cams do not.

Those 2 differences right there give a DEFINATE advantage to the STG 2 user over the stg 1 guys....and those 2 things have NOTHING to do with the actual cam grind or specs. Thats basically FREE power for the VT stg 2 guys, but look at my car....im RIGHT with MOST stg2 guys.

Thanks Laserred, I really have never given this much thought....but I think your right. The VT stg 2 cams arent making more power because they are "bigger", they are really making more because the cams are always installed correctly.
I always knew degreeing the cams and valve springs would give you more power...but never REALLY put 2 and 2 togethor.


Oh yea and to the few people trying to say that VT stg 2 cams will not loose down low torque....thats complete BS.
Talk to the guys that own VT stg 2 cams, they will tell your straight up that they lost power down low. PM jasonH_86 or Csledd, they will tell you....Csledd was dyno tuned before the stg 2s...added them and got a retune. Before and afer dyno shows down low loss and SOTP shows a loss.

 

[ADRENLN]

most of the stage 2 cams lose power down low. its just the way they are designed. that was the whole reason i went with a custom stage 1 blower cam. i also got them installed in the heads professionally by fox lake and i have aftermarket springs and oversized valves + whatever else comes in the stage 2 heads. that is why i really havent suffered from the blower cams without the blower.

those other things do help out. also i have dyno proven gains fron 2000rpm all the way up with the stage 1's!!! i love them

 

[player4lifeov]

Not flaming but I rarely if ever have seen VT Stage 1's hit the magical 300 mark w stock heads..I put down 303/318 w the 2's

With all the basic bolt ons 300rwhp is attainable and not rare. I have 270 and thats w/out lt headers, tb and plenum, electric water pump, and a tune to go with all that. If i add all those components i guarantee you i'll hit 300 rwhp