It appears that we were too late for Hoopty.
Have to wait and see what it is now.
Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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It appears that we were too late for Hoopty.
Have to wait and see what it is now.
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It appears that we were too late for Hoopty.
Have to wait and see what it is now.
See,...you're like trying to make sense out of a foreign language...
Who is the Bozo mushroom cloud for?....I left, and returned w/o incident.
It's either to be taken, that A.
That cloud was/is rising out of Houston somewhere,....
or.. B.
That's a "prediction" for Birmingham?
Mushroom Clown helps to ward off car-build-chaos or (CBC) 
I was in his thread specifically to post up Mushroom Clown when I read that I had arrived too late.
So, I rushed over here before something happened. Sounds like you were explaining some things that were going well (tempting the little gremlins).
I was in his thread specifically to post up Mushroom Clown when I read that I had arrived too late.
So, I rushed over here before something happened. Sounds like you were explaining some things that were going well (tempting the little gremlins).
On my datalog,..the injectors go to 112% duty cycle for about a second when the thing first hits 7 pounds, so that prompted me to take the laptop downstairs and see where the running fuel pressure was. Now I didn't start the car,..I just turned on the pump and looked at the pressure. It was around 50 p.s.i.
I wonder how much a running engine drops the cyclical fuel pressure at idle?
Nonetheless,..I adjusted it down to 43,5 in a non-running mode,...I'm sure that when I start it next that will be way too low. We'll see I guess.
The whole reason for me going down there to look at it was simply because the injectors go to 112%. When you look back at some of the other datalogs,....they've been there before....not 112%, but over 100%.
I don't have to be any kind of tuner to know that I can't run the injectors at that extreme.
So that is what prompted the look at the fuel pressure, and to wonder whether or not the regulator is doing what it's supposed to do when it starts seeing boost...
If fuel pressure is supposed to be static at 43.5 on a running, non loaded engine,...and each pound of boost gets another pound of fuel pressure, is that sufficient to call the injectors adequate for the engine?
These are 44 lb/hr injectors. Even when you target 450HP (which this engine will never make) and set an 85% max duty cycle into the calculator,..the recommendation for injector size comes back at 44lb/hr.
What are the factors that could be making the injectors bust their ass like this?
I wonder how much a running engine drops the cyclical fuel pressure at idle?
Nonetheless,..I adjusted it down to 43,5 in a non-running mode,...I'm sure that when I start it next that will be way too low. We'll see I guess.
The whole reason for me going down there to look at it was simply because the injectors go to 112%. When you look back at some of the other datalogs,....they've been there before....not 112%, but over 100%.
I don't have to be any kind of tuner to know that I can't run the injectors at that extreme.
So that is what prompted the look at the fuel pressure, and to wonder whether or not the regulator is doing what it's supposed to do when it starts seeing boost...
If fuel pressure is supposed to be static at 43.5 on a running, non loaded engine,...and each pound of boost gets another pound of fuel pressure, is that sufficient to call the injectors adequate for the engine?
These are 44 lb/hr injectors. Even when you target 450HP (which this engine will never make) and set an 85% max duty cycle into the calculator,..the recommendation for injector size comes back at 44lb/hr.
What are the factors that could be making the injectors bust their ass like this?
I think it's awesome to see how far you've changed a traditionally ugly family truckster into a sweet machine.
OK Mike here is the deal....On my datalog,..the injectors go to 112% duty cycle for about a second when the thing first hits 7 pounds, so that prompted me to take the laptop downstairs and see where the running fuel pressure was. Now I didn't start the car,..I just turned on the pump and looked at the pressure. It was around 50 p.s.i.
I wonder how much a running engine drops the cyclical fuel pressure at idle?
Nonetheless,..I adjusted it down to 43,5 in a non-running mode,...I'm sure that when I start it next that will be way too low. We'll see I guess.
The whole reason for me going down there to look at it was simply because the injectors go to 112%. When you look back at some of the other datalogs,....they've been there before....not 112%, but over 100%.
I don't have to be any kind of tuner to know that I can't run the injectors at that extreme.
So that is what prompted the look at the fuel pressure, and to wonder whether or not the regulator is doing what it's supposed to do when it starts seeing boost...
If fuel pressure is supposed to be static at 43.5 on a running, non loaded engine,...and each pound of boost gets another pound of fuel pressure, is that sufficient to call the injectors adequate for the engine?
These are 44 lb/hr injectors. Even when you target 450HP (which this engine will never make) and set an 85% max duty cycle into the calculator,..the recommendation for injector size comes back at 44lb/hr.
What are the factors that could be making the injectors bust their ass like this?
MS is a batch fire system ie. Non sequential.
This means that you will always have two banks of injectors alternating pulse events. Ie... Extra dead time event
Then we have the fact that we are using 2 pulses per cycle. This increases throttle response and smoothes idle with a batch fire system..... at the cost of another extra pulse event.....
So normally we size injectors with a single dead time event of 1ms.
But now you are sizing them with what is effectively a 4ms dead time.
At 7000 rpm it takes the crank 17ms to complete a revolution. (Roughly) that means with the MS you are spending a good portion of that time opening the injector.....
Most likely the 118% you see is not a true representation of the useable injector range. This is because eventually the injector will "peak and hold"......
I would instead look at the injector time. It is based in milliseconds.
I called DIY on the way into work this morning to bounce the 112% injector duty cycle thingy off of them, and spoke w/ a guy named Kurt. Wants me to send them the most recent tune and datalog from yesterday.
I asked him if they actually fielded phone calls like mine, or whether or not they preferred to communicate via email.
DIY Auto tune is changing.
They have launched a new side of the business to cater to their MS3/MS3Pro customers they call MPFI amp.
They'll take calls from people that purchase those fully assembled kits.
As for the rest of us,...The ones that built our own junk,....they prefer email.
But I got their number regardless.
Cool. The new ms3 is where it's at. Completely different level of capabilities.
Let me know what comes of the emails, this way we can document it on the MS thread.
Thanks.
Let me know what comes of the emails, this way we can document it on the MS thread.
Thanks.
This morning's new thoughts.........(While laying in bed at some really stupid wee hour of the morning thinking about it.)
My engine gets cooler as air moves through the radiator while driving. That can only be one thing here,...the T-stat is stuck open.
This stupid engine has two bypass circuits for the coolant to find it's way past that thermostat however,...one is the heater return hose, (which I have installed a shutoff valve, so I can restrict water movement), and the other is that little 1/4" hard line where all the ports are plumbed into each other above the exhaust ports and then routed into the T-stat housing.
So,...Ideally I got 3 possible scenarios,....one is supposed to be almost shut off, and the other is less than 1/4" in diameter.
The T-stat has just got to be stuck open.....
If I go down and turn on the key,...open the radiator cap and see water moving on a cold engine,...I got a return path for water.
I'll check that in a minute.
Now,.......for the "one",........Provided that you are even looking...
When looking at my last test, the Datalog shows that when the thing hit boost the AFR went through the floor (It's sposed to).
However...
My Afr table is set to only go no fatter than 11.8:1,...and according to the datalog,..my afr is 9.3?,....W.T.F?
I was thinking maybe the warm up enrichment circuit was maybe adding fuel, but according to that table, WUE is all in and done by 140 degrees.
So,...maybe Accel enrichment has to be at play here instead?.....
Which ever it is,..something has to be causing the inj's to go over 100% duty cycle when my foot is on the floor....
And then there's this....@a91what
So,..coolant temp here is a problem evidently,...Partially. I was poking around in megalog viewer, loaded my tune, and told the thing to do a VE analysis and it popped up that warning screen.
That filter setting is set to 160 as a minimum. The majority of the time that I'm talking about here is while in boost (where the engine temp was above that). Nonetheless,..I gotta fix the engine temp thing. This has always been a problem,..I need to figure it out.
My engine gets cooler as air moves through the radiator while driving. That can only be one thing here,...the T-stat is stuck open.
This stupid engine has two bypass circuits for the coolant to find it's way past that thermostat however,...one is the heater return hose, (which I have installed a shutoff valve, so I can restrict water movement), and the other is that little 1/4" hard line where all the ports are plumbed into each other above the exhaust ports and then routed into the T-stat housing.
So,...Ideally I got 3 possible scenarios,....one is supposed to be almost shut off, and the other is less than 1/4" in diameter.
The T-stat has just got to be stuck open.....
If I go down and turn on the key,...open the radiator cap and see water moving on a cold engine,...I got a return path for water.
I'll check that in a minute.
Now,.......for the "one",........Provided that you are even looking...
When looking at my last test, the Datalog shows that when the thing hit boost the AFR went through the floor (It's sposed to).
However...
My Afr table is set to only go no fatter than 11.8:1,...and according to the datalog,..my afr is 9.3?,....W.T.F?
I was thinking maybe the warm up enrichment circuit was maybe adding fuel, but according to that table, WUE is all in and done by 140 degrees.
So,...maybe Accel enrichment has to be at play here instead?.....
Which ever it is,..something has to be causing the inj's to go over 100% duty cycle when my foot is on the floor....
And then there's this....@a91what
So,..coolant temp here is a problem evidently,...Partially. I was poking around in megalog viewer, loaded my tune, and told the thing to do a VE analysis and it popped up that warning screen.
That filter setting is set to 160 as a minimum. The majority of the time that I'm talking about here is while in boost (where the engine temp was above that). Nonetheless,..I gotta fix the engine temp thing. This has always been a problem,..I need to figure it out.
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Addendum.
Water is moving through the little 1/4 line,...but barely. When you look into the radiator you barely see any disturbance in the water. Nonetheless you can hear water running into the T stat housing. Pinch that hose off, and the noise and water movement stop. So,...maybe no stuck open T stat (Unless it's really slow to return back closed).
So then,..the obvious test here is to close that line off w/ a little shut off valve. and see what happens to my engine temp when te car runs again.
I need to get the AFR thing, and the duty cycle issue solved too before I go out and wail on the thing again....
There'll be no mushroom clown in my thread..( Other than the one that Noobz has already dropped in here)
Water is moving through the little 1/4 line,...but barely. When you look into the radiator you barely see any disturbance in the water. Nonetheless you can hear water running into the T stat housing. Pinch that hose off, and the noise and water movement stop. So,...maybe no stuck open T stat (Unless it's really slow to return back closed).
So then,..the obvious test here is to close that line off w/ a little shut off valve. and see what happens to my engine temp when te car runs again.
I need to get the AFR thing, and the duty cycle issue solved too before I go out and wail on the thing again....
There'll be no mushroom clown in my thread..( Other than the one that Noobz has already dropped in here)
- Jul 7, 2005
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So what thermostat do you have in the car...160...180...192?
Also, when looking in Megalogviewer what is CLT showing your coolant temp to be? If the CLT is too low, then yes you could still be seeing WUE causing all kinds of havoc since WUE is an adder to the VE table value. Do you have the default labels at the bottom for your gauge cluster? Is WUE green?
Make sure to set your filter option to be 10 degrees below the thermostat rating, so you dont run into the issue you are having.
Also, when looking in Megalogviewer what is CLT showing your coolant temp to be? If the CLT is too low, then yes you could still be seeing WUE causing all kinds of havoc since WUE is an adder to the VE table value. Do you have the default labels at the bottom for your gauge cluster? Is WUE green?
Make sure to set your filter option to be 10 degrees below the thermostat rating, so you dont run into the issue you are having.
Let's put a hold on things here real quick I will answer the afr issue first.
You are being affected in 3 ways.
1.- actual enrichment from ve table
2.- all other static enrichment including warm up
3.- AE.... this one has not been tuned yet and is a likely culprit.
First things first.... if your out of wot afr is acceptable (within .2 of target) during warm up then it's not likely to be affecting the wot portion of the tune.
Then check.... AE we never did get to setting this in any way it is a roughed in table. The method is simple and will take 15 mins to complete. (One thing to remember you want to be about .5 richer than target.)
If not those 2 then....... the ve table in that area of the tune has not yet been adjusted, if the boost comes on sooner than before and holds..... then we have to retune the ve table like a sc....
You are being affected in 3 ways.
1.- actual enrichment from ve table
2.- all other static enrichment including warm up
3.- AE.... this one has not been tuned yet and is a likely culprit.
First things first.... if your out of wot afr is acceptable (within .2 of target) during warm up then it's not likely to be affecting the wot portion of the tune.
Then check.... AE we never did get to setting this in any way it is a roughed in table. The method is simple and will take 15 mins to complete. (One thing to remember you want to be about .5 richer than target.)
If not those 2 then....... the ve table in that area of the tune has not yet been adjusted, if the boost comes on sooner than before and holds..... then we have to retune the ve table like a sc....
I was under the assumption that adjusting the AFR table changed the VE table commensurately. Clearly, I was wrong.
It's easy to tell the ECU what afr you want,...there is an accepted standard to follow based on that. But VE is just a bunch of numbers...I got no clue.
Ve is based on the fuel amount needed to get 14.7 (stoic) afr.
This is directly affected by the required fuel AND afr table.
But none of that really matters in the grand scheme.... here are some key notes....
1.- the ve table is affected by the afr table from stoic.
2.- any number in the ve table is a representation of fuel, the actual number means nothing.
Example- I have a VE of 100 and my Afr table is set to 14.7 in the same area. If I change the AFR table to 13 the fuel will automatically be increased by 11.3%... but the ve table will still show 100.
Example 2- I have a VE of 100 my Afr is 10 but my Afr table says 12... I want to get the afr into target, so I need to change the ve number to get the right afr.
Right now it has too much fuel so I have to reduce the ve table numbers... but how much does it need to change? The answer is based in a percentage... this is because the ve and AFR table are tied together.
So I have 100ve
Afr of 10.... my target AFR is 12. Some simple math will need to be done. I will take my afr and divide it by my target.
10÷12= .83333
Now I need to multiply my VE by 83%
100×.83333= 83.3
the new VE of 83.3 will take my afr from 10 to 12. ....Now I'm on target with the AFR table and the afr of the engine being equal.
This is directly affected by the required fuel AND afr table.
But none of that really matters in the grand scheme.... here are some key notes....
1.- the ve table is affected by the afr table from stoic.
2.- any number in the ve table is a representation of fuel, the actual number means nothing.
Example- I have a VE of 100 and my Afr table is set to 14.7 in the same area. If I change the AFR table to 13 the fuel will automatically be increased by 11.3%... but the ve table will still show 100.
Example 2- I have a VE of 100 my Afr is 10 but my Afr table says 12... I want to get the afr into target, so I need to change the ve number to get the right afr.
Right now it has too much fuel so I have to reduce the ve table numbers... but how much does it need to change? The answer is based in a percentage... this is because the ve and AFR table are tied together.
So I have 100ve
Afr of 10.... my target AFR is 12. Some simple math will need to be done. I will take my afr and divide it by my target.
10÷12= .83333
Now I need to multiply my VE by 83%
100×.83333= 83.3
the new VE of 83.3 will take my afr from 10 to 12. ....Now I'm on target with the AFR table and the afr of the engine being equal.
Ok,..so I did that...Now the VE map looks "unbalanced" I was basically in the same scenario that you used as an example. the areas that were tracking on the datalog were in the 100-109 area,....reading 9.7-10 AFR .
Then I do what you recommend divide 10 into 12 to get .833. Highlight a group of the affected cells,..hit the multiplier key, and enter .8333 as the multiplier. the numbers go down commensurately. When I watch the datalog,..the blue line/dot goes straight up in the VE table at the 2600 RPM mark and goes straight up into 100 kpa then moves up, and right into the 160 KPA range. where 7 p.s.i. is at.
It bothers me that there are larger numbers at lower kpa values. And what about the entire lower right hand corner of the table? will the engine ever see those numbers?
This table is after the mutilation
As you can see, where the old values used to rise into the 100,102,105,109 range,..there is an abrupt step down to leanie town....
Seems crazy to me.
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