Electrical 1989 5.0 Need Serious Electrical Help

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by Wonderbread750, May 1, 2014.


  1. Wonderbread750

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    Alright so heres the story, i was installing a msd 6al2 ignition system with a blaster ss coil and i didnt disconnect the battery like an a plus student haha, but in taking off the tfi coil, i shorted the hot on the starter relay to the ignition coil. Ive replaced all the fusible links on my starter relay including the relay except the breaker hooked up to it. I have power to the eec and fuel pump, ive have all power to the tfi module except the pip sensor i didnt have a test light. Ive also noticed that after the short my headlights stopped working when switched on. Could this be related? If so where and how? All the car does is crank..and crank and i have no spark from the coil. Ive thought of everything and i cant figure it out, could my short have caused the pip sensor/hall effect sensor to go? What do you think guys i need this car running as soon and as cheaply as possible. But the msd wont start it nor stock, what do you guys suggest?
     
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  2. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    [​IMG]

    Fuse links come with a current rating just like fuses. A clue as to what current they are designed for is to look at the size wire they protect.


    Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds


    Fuse box layout
    [​IMG]



    Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected 5.0 Mustangs model years 1986-1995

    A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.


    Revised 12-Dec-2011 to replace 10 pin salt & pepper connector graphic.

    All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

    Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

    1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
    Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

    No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
    B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
    C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
    D.) Coil
    E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
    86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
    F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
    86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
    94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
    Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
    Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
    94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
    H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
    In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
    In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
    You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
    I.) Computer. Don’t replace the computer just because you don’t understand how it works. Computers seldom fail, it usually is a sensor or wiring problem that causes the problems.
    J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
    K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red/blue wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.

    Wiring Diagrams:

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


    AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

    2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
    A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
    B.) Distributor cap
    C.) Rotor
    D.) Spark Plug wires
    E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

    3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
    Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

    Two reasons:
    1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
    2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
    If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

    Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 2-4 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.

    [​IMG]

    If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


    4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
    B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
    C.) Clogged fuel filter
    D.) Failed fuel pump
    E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
    91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
    The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
    94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
    F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

    5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
    A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
    A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.

    I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
    B.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
    C.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).

    See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
    [​IMG]
    The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.


    D.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
    E.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
    On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
    It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

    6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
    A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
    B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
    C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
    D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
    HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
    Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
    E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
    F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.





    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    O2 sensor wiring harness
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangO2Harness.gif

    Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

    HVAC vacuum diagram
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

    TFI module differences & pin out
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

    Fuse box layout
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif

    87-92 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang87-92 PowerWindowWiring.gif

    93 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang93PowerWindows.gif

    Visual comparison of the Ford Fuel Injectors, picture by TMoss:
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Ford_Injector_Guide.jpg
     
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  3. Wonderbread750

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    Thanks ill look into that i didnt know their all rated for different amperage, you think its possible that i might of also blew the pip sensor?
     
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  4. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Not likely.

    Do not chase rabbits, do the checklist, one step at a time, do not skip any steps.
    Fail to follow the checklist and you will spend lots more time and more money.

    This includes bypassing the MSD box.
     
    #4
  5. Wonderbread750

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    Ok so with the old coil plugged in with the msd unit and i got it to fire and then it died, why is this? When i wired the msd to the tfi module i just tapped the msd into the wires, should i have just abandoned the original and installed the msd directly?
     
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  6. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Ditch ALL the MSD - MSD stands for May Suddenly Die. There are more problems related to MSD than any other manufacturer. The stock ignition is good to 450 HP, and the only reason for MSD or any similar ignition box is that you are running NO2 or pressurized induction - turbocharger or supercharger.
     
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  7. Wonderbread750

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    Ok so i went through the tests and the tfi module and pip sensor are good, what should i do next?
     
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  8. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Like I said, do ALL the checklist. Do it in the order given.
    Did you get positive results (good flash from the noid light) when using the noid light to check for injector pulse?

    If you have spark & good noid light test, go to the next group, Fuel Delivery.
     
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  9. Wonderbread750

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    Its not a fuel issue i have fuel to the injectors and pressure, its a no spark from the coil thats brand new, ive used two new coils and neither spark
     
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  10. Wonderbread750

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    Do you know where i coild find a computer pin layout for what wire is for what and how many volts its suppose to have at that wire either with the key on or off?
     
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  11. OonDeanisS

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  12. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Somehow I don't seem to be communicating my point to you.



    "Grasshopper, follow the master's instructions!"


    Follow the checklist - do ALL of it.
    Don't chase rabbits: at some point you will find something important missing. That is were the problem is.

    Do you have good spark at the spark plug?
    Yes or no

    If not, have you bypassed the MSD?
    yes or no?

    Did you get positive results (good flash from the noid light) when using the noid light to check for injector pulse?
    Yes or no?
     
    #12
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  13. Wonderbread750

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    Spark at spark plugs no, bypass msd yes? And yes i have positive results on the noid light, everything checks out good except spark and the msd is disconnected
     
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  14. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    If the noid light test was good, the PIP is probably OK.

    Go back to the checklist and pick up at 1F.

    Do steps 1F,& 1G: report your results on each step.

    Diagrams courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

    Note the ignition system fuse link shown on the ignition wiring on both diagrams.
    The squiggly line ~ looking thingy in the first diagram is a fuse link.

    Ignition switch wiring
    [​IMG]

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    [​IMG]

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    O2 sensor wiring harness
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangO2Harness.gif

    Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

    HVAC vacuum diagram
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

    TFI module differences & pin out
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

    Fuse box layout
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif

    87-92 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang87-92 PowerWindowWiring.gif

    93 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang93PowerWindows.gif

    Visual comparison of the Ford Fuel Injectors, picture by TMoss:
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Ford_Injector_Guide.jpg
     
    #14
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
  15. Wonderbread750

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    Steps 1f was 11.43 volts, and 1g was 11.43 volts, my battery is low yes but even jumped it wont spark
     
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  16. Wonderbread750

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    I dont know if this means anything but the pinouts at the computer for 3 of the tfi module wires have a high voltage reading
     
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  17. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Lets review what you have done:
    1. ) Bypassed the MSD, it is no longer connected to anything. You are using the stock coil connected to the red/green wire 12 volt power and the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector.
    2. ) Got good results from the PIP test, noid light flashes when plugged into one of the fuel injectors.
    3.) Got good 12 volts on the red/green wire on the stock coil with the ignition switch in the Run position..
    4. Tested the spark with the SPOUT removed.
    5. Tested the TFI using the test light method described in paragraph 1-C of the Cranks Ok but no start checklist posted above.
     
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    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  18. Wonderbread750

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    1) yes the msd is out of the equation
    2)no, i must have misread that part, ill do that today and post results
    3) yes i had good current, fusible links are good
    4) yes, and there was no spark
    5) yes my light flashed during crank
     
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  19. Wonderbread750

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    Fixed!!!! When unistalling msd make sure green with yellow stripe tach wire is plugged in correctly, loose crimp wasnt conducting, thanks jrichker
     
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  20. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Glad to hear you got it fixed. Enjoy your Mustang now that you can actually drive it! :)
     
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