2.3 n/a + Megasquirt - Been done?

Discussion in '2.3L (N/A & Turbo) Tech' started by Flyin2.3, Sep 13, 2009.


  1. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    :rlaugh::rlaugh::rlaugh::rlaugh: <- I'll do this before everyone else.

    I've got the parts, MS v3.0 w/MSnSe, EEC-IV adaptor board, LC-1 wideband, adj cam pulley... Old G-Tech for rough #'s

    Money's tight & I need to get my turbo head finished & buy a new turbo before I can swap that engine in. I really just want to "play" with the MS.

    Current parts on hand/mods on the n/a car: DIY CAI, EGR/KS disco'd, interior purge (weight reduction), (on hand->)Ranger Roller cam & "header", MSD 6A, Taurus fan, Super Coupe TB (pretty sure the whistle from the car is the stock 50mm TB).

    Any interest in updates?

    Honestly, I don't expect a lot of performance gains from this, I just want to learn the MS & LC-1.
    #1
  2. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Hope to install the Ranger header in a couple days. Welded the EGR bung shut & drilled a new hole for the O2 sensor, the wideband sensor needs to be on top, the factory sensor location is on the bottom. Once the new bung is welded on I'll weld the factory bung shut & put it on the car. I'm keeping the rest of the exhaust that's there now, 2" pipe, 2 factory cats & turbo muffler w/no tail pipe.

    Started on the SC TB, Cleaned it up, filled the original bolt holes with liquid metal filler & milled the coolant tube off. I've got a spare upper intake that I'll open up for the 60mm TB. Need to make an EGR block-off plate or cut & plug the EGR mounting boss. Really don't want to swap the TB & cam at the same time but my valve spring compressor might need the room & why tear it apart twice.

    Anyone know how much can be milled from the head & still run 93 octane? I'm thinking 10.5 or 11:1 CR should be good.
    #2
  3. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    The header is on & the EGR is totally gone. Possible small gain, hard to tell with a butt dyno. Might have hurt the O2 sensor, I hit the hot end w/PB Blaster to get it out. Runs good down the road, some stalling & the idle floats from 600-1200 RPM when cold, seems OK when warm.

    The Megasquirt adapter board is finished, should have the patch cable done tomorrow night. After a couple changes to the MS ECU to run Ford sensors & add an internal USB adapter it will be ready to go.

    Should be able to finish the TB & upper intake this weekend, might have time to install the wideband sensor & AFR gauge too. I'll be running it as a narrow band with the factory ECU until the MS is installed.

    After the WBO2 is in I'll be moving the battery to the back to make room for the MSD box, then the cam & maybe the TB. Hopefully the speed density system can deal with these minor(?) changes.
    #3
  4. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Haven't been able to get as much done as I wanted to. Always seems to happen that way, no big deal.

    Waiting on the crimp tool for the patch cable. Radio Shack is useless now unless your looking for crappy toys or pay as you go phones. The TB & upper intake are finished. Right now I'm a little to impatient to deal with soldering electronics & small wires.

    Did more research on raising the CR. E85 may be the answer. A couple things I read claim its almost detonation proof. One talked about having 19:1 CR, another a stock long block Mustang (hyper pistons & factory head gaskets) running 12psi boost w/o any problems. E85 swap seems simple enough, bigger injectors, AFPR & maybe a bigger fuel pump. Got over my fear of E85 today too, filled up with a 50/50 mix of E85 & 93 octane. If nothing else it will clean out the fuel system.

    Car is idling better now, fast idle stays longer & settles in at a solid 900rpm. Still stalls now & then but it always seems to do that after the battery has been disconnected for a while.
    #4
  5. 65ShelbyClone

    65ShelbyClone Founding Member

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    I am moderately surprised no one else has replied yet, especially with how many times I have seen people ask if MS was worth any power by itself.

    I have been toying with E85 in an unusually octane-sensitive dirt bike of mine and the results are favorable, but it only has 10.5:1. I don't know how anyone could run 19:1 compression and not detonate the stuff unless the cam bleeds off a lot of pressure, no ignition timing, etc. That's methanol country and methanol has a 15 point octane advantage....and when it detonates, it melts engine parts quite handily.

    Anyway, interesting project and I look forward to updates. :nice:
    #5
  6. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Interesting read if you understand enginerd.:sleep:

    Engine & fuel engineering - Highest Compression Ratio for E85

    The 19:1 may have been spark fired direct injection but here's another post from the same thread:

    Hi,
    I just came from a streetrod event Sat. There was guy who was selling carbs modified for E-85. His 2 demo cars were a 6-71 blown small block Chev in a Nova..quite a large one 427 cu in. This one had a dyno sheet that showed well over 500 hp and 600+ ft lbs torque. It ran about 7 pounds of boost. He said that while it is really a hot rod it actually was pretty mild mannered. He said it could make a lot more power just by upping the boost and changing carb jets. His other car was a tamer Camaro with a 383 cu in SBC. This one was much more of a "driver". Both cars are driven to the local streetrod events and on numerous rod runs and are not trailer queens.

    To answer the question the blown one had 12.7:1 and the unblown one had 13.7:1 compression ratios.

    E-85 is readily available here in Minn so it is an alternative. It takes high compression to make it work and you probably won't get the greatest MPG as it simply takes more fuel to burn properly. It does work however.


    and another:

    Max Schauk {sp?) used ethanol (neat, e100 i believe) as a replacement for aviation fuel. crossed the atlantic with it. Various "maximum" e85 CRs from 13:1 to 15:1 with different engines. the composition of the 15% petroleum product and the engine tune are the determining factors. petroleum blenders have found that profit can be increased by using the lowest possible octane gasoline with 85% ethanol to bring the octane up to that of unleaded regular. octane rating systems seem to be nebulous concerning ethanol. seems to be too much $ at stake, a lot of research to spec.
    as distilled, ethanol is an azeotrope, with 5% water. anhydrous ethanol is needed to blend with gasoline for e85, adding expense, decreasing net energy. i suggest optimizing engine to operate on hydrous azeotropic ethanol. water injection has long been used to reduce cylinder temperatures. compression ratios should approach 18:1. As regards supercharging as a form of variable compression, ford motor 1997 mustang super stallion utilized supercharging. power increase about 10% on e-85, highly tuned engine, 5.4 liter, 590 hp on e85 dynamic compression, boost pressure, i dunno


    I think I'll go to the JY this weekend & get a head, then stop & buy some good beer to pay a friend to mill it to ~12-12.5:1. I can always put the stock head back on.
    #6
  7. bhuff30

    bhuff30 Founding Member

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    E85 is certainly not detonation proof, but sure has a lot of octane. :D

    In my experience, too much timing is the major cause for detonation on E85.
    I'm running E85 on my 2.3. It has a bit less than 8:1 compression, 24 very inefficienty psi from a T3, stock timing and a 35 shot thrown on top. I didn't have any issues with detonation, but did crack a cylinder wall. :(

    I've heard my car rattle on E85 before, but it was usually because I was overly aggressive with the timing. With normal timing, I have yet to push it far enough to rattle.

    #7
  8. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    OK, the crimper showed up yesterday so I'll finish the patch cable today. The MS has been updated for Ford sensors, I still need to solder in the internal USB adapter & then it's ready to be installed. Probably won't put it in until spring, the car will get parked for winter in about a month.

    Plan to install the wideband this weekend & put a bunch of stuff on craigslist & ebay to restock the car account. If I get that finished early enough I'll hit the JY for a head. Next weekend the cam goes in.

    I picked up a set of 19# injectors for the E85 conversion. Been thinking that I might want to get some 24#. The WBO2 will let me know, if its a little lean on gas with the stock 14# injectors I'll get the 24# for E85 (=17# for gas).
    #8
  9. 65ShelbyClone

    65ShelbyClone Founding Member

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    I'm going to take an educated guess that 19lb/hr injectors will be adequate at 90% DC assuming the engine is in its stock 88hp state.
    #9
  10. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Yeah, the 19# should be ok, might have to bump the fuel pressure a bit. I'm thinking possibly 24# because I've noticed that when I get on it, with the pedal to the floor it accelerates slower than if take my foot out of it a little. Possibly not getting enough fuel at WOT. Its a pretty big change so I don't think its the butterfly going over center. Once the WBO2 is in I'll know more.
    #10
  11. 65ShelbyClone

    65ShelbyClone Founding Member

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    My SVO does that too and I suspect it's the 25 year-old TPS sensor. I don't think it's a fuel issue; stock 2.3T fuel curves go from rich to richer after the torque peak.
    #11
  12. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    I'll check the TPS, I've got a few laying around if I need to swap it out. I know the turbo EEC's go rich, just haven't seen anything on the 2.3 n/a box.

    Been rethinking waiting until spring for the MS. I can at least work out any bugs, get it to idle & maybe a little tuning on the weekends & swap back to the EEC-IV to get to work during the week. That adapter board is going to be real nice. Keep a wrench & the EEC-IV in the car while on the road & just swap it out if something goes bad with the MS.
    #12
  13. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Haven't had time to work on the car lately. Went back to straight gas, had a few cold mornings & it didn't really like it. Also had a pretty big drop in mpg, 225mi per tank full for gas to 175mi on the 50/50 E85 mix. That & a friend filled it with cash for clunkers gas for free, well I had to help him get a car running to sell it.

    '82 Mustang with a 289/auto. The guy that put it together should have his tools revoked. I mean who in their right mind cuts the tips off a cooling fan, doesn't bleed the brakes after hacking the new lines in & runs the vac hose for the brake booster from the carb to the intake instead. Still needs a lot of little things fixed but will make a good project car for someone.

    Anyway, maybe this week the rain will stop & I can work on my car again.
    #13
  14. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    OK, got a little time to work on the car today. I'm a couple connections (power & grounds) away from having the LC-1 hooked up. Electrical is NOT one of my favorite things to work on & Innovate's instructions, well.... SUCK!!. After reading them & taking notes I still had to draw my own wiring diagram & tape it to the dash to make sure I got it right the first time. The harness is all soldered & completed. I just need to wire up a the power relay, attach all the grounds & tap into the headlights for the night dimmer.

    I bought a new toy off Ebay, an old Palm Vx for $20 to use for tuning the MS when I get it installed. You can tune almost everything (if not everything) & datalog without having to carry a laptop in the car or in my case buy a new battery for it & well... the chicks will dig it :D

    Its looking like I'll have to change my install plan a bit. Money's still tight so I'm thinking I'll install the MSD 6al next (hopefully some night this week) & move it later, when the battery moves to the trunk. I think I have everything for the cam swap. Maybe next weekend I can get that done.
    #14
  15. Jax Rhapsody

    Jax Rhapsody Member

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    This is interesting

    Actually when dealing with 140's the n/a EFI models do not make that much hp modded or can yhe take it. The computer is just not smart enough. MS is really your best bet in gaining hp.
    #15
  16. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Well, this is on hold untill spring. Results anyway. I'll be finishing most of whats listed above over the winter, make sure everything is working right in the spring Try to get to the track & get some numbers at that point & then put the MS in & start tuning.
    #16
  17. wicked93gs

    wicked93gs New Member

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    Too bad, I was planning on swapping over to Megasquit for the SVO, more to get rid of the VAM than any other reason...I hate MAF/VAM systems, its a worthless sensor for a modified car, I've used MS before with god results, just not yet on a 2.3L...I'll also be using MS in the '66, regardless I would like to see what mods are needed to run MS on the 2.3L
    #17
  18. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    I'll be running all the factory sensors & wiring at first. I've got it set up so I can switch from the EEC-IV to MS at any time. Ms plugs into an adapter board & that plugs into the factory harness. the only change is adding a diode to the idle control wiring that should have no effect on the EEC-IV.

    Ms on a 2.3 turbo shouldn't be any different. I'll be able to get the rebuilt turbo engine started with my LA2 then swap to the MS & tune. After I get a good tune I'll rewire the engine (& the rest of the car) to get rid of the 20+ year old wiring.
    #18
  19. wicked93gs

    wicked93gs New Member

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    yeah, my whole engine bay needs to be re-done...its awful, I figure I'll pull the engine, make a MS harness, strip down the rust and re-paint everything and clean it the hell up, my '66 bay is so much cleaner and easier to work on with an engine about 8 inches wider
    #19
  20. Flyin2.3

    Flyin2.3 New Member

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    Hoping to get back at this soon. It was a Craptastic winter, the beater died & I ended up driving the Mustang for a couple months. Rust hole showed up on the rear quarter & the one on the hatch grew a lot. Had to replace the TFI a few weeks ago, fixed the broken door handle (damn ice storms) & the hatch rattle. Time for the real work to begin again.
    #20

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