2000 Mustang GT CCRM/Fuel Pump issue

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by mndtrp, Sep 2, 2010.


  1. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    I have a 2000 Mustang GT that I'm unable to get running, and unfortunately I'm not very mechanically inclined. It had sat virtually unused for about a year until I decided to sell the car. The fuel had turned, so I had a local mechanic drain the fuel and replace the pump and filter. He thought he had it running, but apparently it died on him after a short drive, and then he couldn't get it started again. He found the fuel pump wasn't getting any power, and traced it up to the CCRM. He said the CCRM was getting power into it, but not back out.

    This was a couple of months ago. In the meantime, we've tried looking for a spare CCRM to swap out. The dealerships said they are unable to find one, as the part is on some national backorder. We've been unable to locate a 2000 GT at a local salvage yard, save one that had the front passenger side destroyed.

    I gave the CCRM to my buddy who is knowledgeable with electronics. He pulled it apart, and tested the relays as best he knew how with no schematics. He was unable to discern any problems, but again, he didn't have any schematics, and didn't want to just start pulling things off to test, assuming he was testing properly.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to troubleshoot the CCRM, specific to the 2000 GT? Is the CCRM bypassable, providing we use a relay outside of the CCRM? If no to either of those questions, would anyone have a lead on where I can get a new/used CCRM for replacement?

    Thank you in advance for any help.
    #1
  2. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Do you have a GT? Do you realize this was posted in the V6 Tech area? This really should be in the sn95-4-6-tech area. Perhaps the mod can move to the correct area.

    FWIIW, there are several recent threads regarding CCRM problems. The ones I can think of were dealing with AC related issues. But, the concept is the same as the CCRM does control the Fan, PCM, AC, and Fuel pump.

    First, we are going to assume that you have checked ALL of the fuses in the battery junction box and the central junction box. Note, they can be hard to tell if blown from above. I have helped several ppl that "thought" a fuse was OK only to find it not the case. The fuel pump is on fuse F1.14 in the BJB.

    Next, assume that this is not an anti-theft (PATS) problem and the anti-theft light goes out after a 3 second "prove out".

    Don't bypass it. A re-man unit is not really all that expensive. A remanufactured unit comes with a warrantee and is guaranteed to work. Besides, it is much simplier and safer than trying to rig up a bypass. Have you checked your local autoparts store?

    Cardone 73-70020 - Relay Control Module | O'Reilly Auto Parts

    BWD RCM12M - Relay Module | O'Reilly Auto Parts

    What about a salvage yard? Check car-part.com for a list of salvage yards in your area.

    Note, Ford used the same CCRM in many different models. The replacement does not have to come from a Mustang. Look at the Oreillyauto WEB site under compatibility. This could provide a list of possible donor cars.

    Of course this is based upon the initial trouble shooting that there is no power out of the CCRM. If you want to be sure, test for +12 volts at the IFS switch in the trunk. There should be +12 volts at the IFS switch anytime the key is in run. If there is +12 volts, the CCRM is OK and the problem is elsewhere.

    Post up the test results. I am confident that with some help and accurate test results, it will run again.

    Good luck.
    #2
  3. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    Shoot, I'm sorry. I thought I was in the correct forum. I had searched for a thread similar to mine, but as you said, they were for the AC issues.

    Unfortunately, I'm going mostly off of what the mechanic told me, as far as testing. I know a bit more than the basics when it comes to vehicles, but this issue was a bit beyond me at the time. He said he traced it up to the CCRM, power in, but no power out. He wasn't able to locate a part himself, so I had the car towed back to my house.

    I see no issues with the anti-theft, fuses look fine. I've been to a few salvage yards, but they only have a F6SF-12B77-AA, and mine is an AB. I wasn't sure if they were compatible, and fordparts.com wasn't able to tell me. They told me I needed to use an F6SZ-12B577-AA. I didn't really think bypassing was the best idea, but I had read where people have done it for the AC system.

    The salvage unit was the same price as what Oreilly is quoting, and Oreilly is much closer. I didn't know if they had a spare that would work. Since you gave me the links below, I'll stop by in a few minutes.

    Thank you for the help. I've been given some odd info from people I've spoken to in person, so I had hoped that people who spent a lot of time with mustangs would be able to give me something a bit more concrete.

    Apologies again for the wrong section of the forum.
    #3
  4. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Same price and guaranteed. Sounds like a true no brainer to me. :banana:

    No worries about posting in the wrong forum. My concern is the number of "eyes" on your post.

    Please update the post with the resolution so that others can learn as well.
    #4
  5. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    Okay, I finally got the part and installed it. I'm getting power to the fuel pump now, but the car still won't start. I was talking to someone who said that anytime a part like this is replaced, the main computer needs to be hooked up at Ford to recognize the new part. I checked the other threads on CCRMs, and I don't see where anyone else has had to do that step.

    Does this sound likely, at all? I'd hate to tow my car to the dealership for no reason. I've checked the fuses, as well as made sure everything was hooked up properly, to the best of my knowledge.
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  6. JSA96

    JSA96 New Member

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    If you replace the CCRM Ford does not need to see the vehicle...

    You have another issue that needs to be located.

    I had ground issues on my car after it sat for >1 yr.
    #6
  7. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    I was afraid of that. I guess I'll go over it as best I can, which probably won't be much. I'm getting close to being done putting time and money into this vehicle, as my patience is wearing thin.
    #7
  8. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    It takes relatively few sensors to start a car. It takes a lot more to keep it running.

    For a crank with no-start, think FAST. Fuel, Air, Spark, Timing. If all are present, the motor will start.

    Please answer all questions and try all tests. The results/details are important and will led to the solution.

    Fuel. Do you have fuel pressure? Do you HEAR the fuel pump running when the key is cycled on/off/on/off? If not, STOP. No sense going any further because it will never start until the fuel issue is resolved.

    Use a noid light to confirm that the fuel injectors are firing.

    If a small amount of starting fluid is sprayed into the intake, will it start? If yes, this will help confirm the diagnosis.

    Timing. No signal from the crank case sensor (CKP) is one of the few sensors that will cause a no-start condition. When the car is cranked does the RPM meter bounce at all? Does the check engine light come on during cranking?

    Air: The PCM needs a reasonable signal from the MAF. If the MAF is way off, this can cause a no-start. Disconnect the MAF and the PCM will use default values. If the car starts with the MAF disconnected, look at a bad MAF.

    Spark: use a noid style tester to confirm the COP's are firing.

    This goes without saying that you have re-checked all fuses in the engine bay (BJB) and passenger compartment (CJB).

    Also, confirm the theft light (PATS) goes out after a 3 second "prove out". If not, STOP. It will never start until this problem is resolved. Remember that PATS disables fuel and spark.

    Why were you replacing the CCRM in the first place? How did you determine it was bad?
    #8
  9. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    Well, I'll do my best with what you've suggested.

    I don't know what you mean by the following:

    Use a noid light to confirm that the fuel injectors are firing.
    Spark: use a noid style tester to confirm the COP's are firing.

    As for why the CCRM; I had the car at a mechanic, since I know very little about troubleshooting vehicles, and he said the CCRM was faulty. He traced power to the CCRM, nothing going to the fuel pump out of the CCRM.

    I only want to get rid of this vehicle, and I'm getting to the breaking point of where I don't want to put more time and money into it. If I could find someone who would give me a decent price not running, I'd offload it in a heartbeat. In the meantime, I'll see what I can do with the rest of your post.
    #9
  10. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Let me see if I have a clear picture. Mechanic says to replace the CCRM but the part does not fix the problem. I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but it seems to me that your mechanic is not very good. At this point, doesn't this bring everything the mechanic said in doubt?

    Perhaps the mechanic is not familiar with return-less systems and simply assumed that no power to the fuel pump means a bad CCRM.

    There are valid reasons for no power to the fuel pump. PATS has been mentioned. There are also other places a fuel delivery problem can break down. Fuses, IFS, and fuel pump, Fuel pump driver module (FPDM) come quickly to mind.

    In any case, doesn't it make sense to fall back and re-group? Perhaps there was something simple was overlooked.

    A noid style tester is an LED tester. Place it accross the device to test and it will flash indicating a firing pulse has been received. Harborfreight makes an very affordable kit.

    With regards to your other question, there are TONS of ppl looking to buy cheap Mustangs on Craigslist. In fact, that is how I came about some of my "project" cars. I look for ppl just like yourself that have a car they can't fix. I buy at fire sale prices and fix the car in my spare time.

    I got the impression that you are tired of throwing parts at this with no results. At this point the options are limited. Throw more parts, perform tests, find a better mechanic, or sell it.

    In closing, here is the stupid saying for the day.

    "There is no elevator to success. You must take the steps."

    Good luck.
    #10
  11. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    Oh, most certainly. It doesn't come across wrong at all. This mechanic was recommended by a friend, and he seemed to treat me well, as far as I could tell. When explaining things to me, he seemed logical, and didn't seem to be ripping me off. I would buy the parts, of which there weren't many, so he wasn't making money there. He didn't charge me much for labor, and didn't charge me anything to hold onto the car while diagnosing, so I didn't get the impression he was pumping me for money. With limited personal knowledge beyond general maintenance and upkeep, it seemed wise to trust him. Granted, since things still aren't running, it seems suspect, but hindsight and all that jazz.

    Originally, when I couldn't get the car started, I assumed the fuel had gone bad and clogged up the usual. Fuel pump has been replaced. I'm not sure what you mean by IFS, and I'll recheck the fuses again. I'm not sure if the fuel pump driver module was replaced or not, I'll have to check.

    Definitely, and simple is relative to the individual's experience. It would sure be a drag to sell the car broken, and then have that person tell me it was a $15 fix.

    Sounds like fun. I'll see if one of the auto parts stores has one I can borrow. Otherwise, I'll see what Harborfreight has, I've been meaning to get there anyway.

    I am. It has more to do with time, as well as the space it's taking up in my garage. I'm not completely comfortable with working on vehicles, and there isn't anyone readily available to assist me. Although, I guess I can't really make the car not run any more than it already is, and this may be the catalyst for learning.

    I'll get on what you've suggested, and report back. I am finished with this mechanic, and I'll probably keep plugging away, as I do enjoy a good puzzle coupled with learning something new. Thank you for the assistance.
    #11
  12. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    I went through the steps in this order:

    I rechecked again, all is as it should be.

    I do hear the fuel pump.

    The RPM gauge doesn't bounce, until I stop cranking. At that point, it jumps a very small amount. The check engine light does not come on when cranking.

    I did this a few times, making sure the lights and gauges did the same thing. During one of the cranks, the car started, idling around 1000 RPMs. When pressing the accelerator quickly, the RPMs would dip, then rise. If pressing slowly, the RPMs would rise normally. Prior to my issues, the car would idle a bit over 1000 RPMs, if I remember correctly.

    I shut the car off, it would not start again within 5 or 6 tries. I then rechecked the step just prior, and moved on when there was no change.

    I disconnected the MAF, the car did not start.

    The theft light clears after 3 seconds. However, it does come on when cranking.

    I also rechecked the fuses, after these steps, but there was no change. I haven't had a chance to get the noid light, and may not be able to this evening, unless it's not necessary any more.
    #12
  13. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    This is your problem. The theft system (PATS) is disabling the fuel and spark. No fuel, no spark equals crank with no start.

    Note, once PATS has been activated, it locks out for 15 minutes. This may explain why it starts sometime after setting awile.

    Is this the first time it actually started since the ordeal began?

    Has the car set for a long period with the battery disconnected? Possible the PCM has forgot the key codes.

    Is there a large metal object on the key ring? Sometimes this will interfer with the PATS signal. Try taking EVERYTHING off expect for the key. Do you have more than one key to try?

    Make sure the battery is fully charged. The PCM requires a stong battery to work all of the electronics. Todays car simply will not work right without a stong battery.

    Please note, it is normal for a cold car to idle at or above 1000 RPM's. It should step down as the motor warms.
    #13
  14. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Instrument Cluster Self-Diagnostic Mode

    Try to access the cluster DTC codes using the following procedure. Post the codes.

    >>
    Instrument Cluster Self-Diagnostic Mode

    To enter the instrument cluster self-diagnostic mode, depress and hold the instrument cluster SELECT/RESET button, turn the ignition switch to the RUN position, and then continue pressing the SELECT/RESET button (five seconds) until tESt is displayed in the odometer. The SELECT/RESET button must be released within three seconds of the odometer tESt display to begin the self-diagnostic mode. Depress the SELECT/RESET button to advance through the following steps until dtc is displayed. Depressing the SELECT/RESET button will display any stored continuous DTCs before proceeding to the next step.

    GEM Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Index DTC Description Source Action
    B1426 Lamp Safety Belt Circuit Short to Battery GEM GO to Pinpoint Test L .
    B1428 Lamp Safety Belt Circuit Failure GEM GO to Pinpoint Test L .
    C1189 Brake Fluid Level Sensor Input Short Circuit to Ground GEM GO to Pinpoint Test P .
    C1223 Lamp Brake Warning Output Circuit Failure GEM GO to Pinpoint Test P .
    C1225 Lamp Brake Warning Output Circuit Short to Battery GEM GO to Pinpoint Test P .


    Instrument Cluster Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Index
    B1202 Fuel Sender Open Circuit ICM REFER to Section 413-01 .
    B1204 Fuel Sender Short to Ground ICM REFER to Section 413-01 .
    B1213 Anti-Theft Number of Programmed Keys is Below Minimum ICM GO to Pinpoint Test D .
    B2103 or B1232 Antenna Not Connected — Defective Transceiver ICM GO to Pinpoint Test E .
    B1317 Battery Voltage High ICM REFER to Section 414-00 .
    B1318 Battery Voltage Low ICM REFER to Section 414-00 .
    B1342 ECU Is Defective ICM REFER to Section 413-01 .
    B1356 Ignition Run Circuit Open ICM REFER to Section 211-05 .
    B1364 Ignition Start Circuit Open ICM REFER to Section 211-05 .
    B1600 PATS Ignition Key Transponder Signal Is Not Received — Damaged Key or Non-PATS Key ICM GO to Pinpoint Test F .
    B1601 PATS Received Incorrect Key-Code From Ignition Key Transponder (Unprogrammed Encoded Ignition Key) ICM GO to Pinpoint Test G .
    B1602 PATS Received Invalid Format Of Key-Code From Ignition Key Transponder (Partial Key Read) ICM GO to Pinpoint Test H .
    B1681 PATS Transceiver Signal Is Not Received (Not Connected, Damaged, or Wiring) ICM GO to Pinpoint Test I .
    B2139 PCM ID Does Not Match Between Instrument Cluster and PCM ICM GO to Pinpoint Test J .
    B2141 NVM Configuration Failure (No PCM ID Exchange Between Instrument Cluster and PCM) ICM GO to Pinpoint Test K .
    B2143 NVM Memory Failure ICM REFER to Section 413-01
    C1284 Oil Pressure Switch Failure ICM REFER to Section 413-01 .
    U1147 SCP Invalid or Missing Data for Vehicle Security PCM/SCP GO to Pinpoint Test C .
    U1262 Missing SCP Message J1850 REFER to Section 418-00 .
    #14
  15. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    DTCNONE comes up. No subsequent presses of the button brings up any codes similar to the ones originally posted. Interesting bit of information, though, never knew that was there.

    No. From what I understand, the mechanic would occasionally get the car started, but after driving around for an unspecified amount of time and parking, he wouldn't be able to get it started again. I am unsure how many times this happened.

    I'm not sure about disconnected, but while in my possession, the battery was completely dead. I imagine that would be the same thing, basically. I don't know how long, but probably at least a couple months.

    I have two keys, one that I have always used, one that was a spare made by the dealership almost a decade ago when I lost my original spare. When only using the keys, the original key has the theft signal come up when cranking. The spare does not have the signal come up. I used the spare key first, the RPM gauge jumped to full RPMs, but no start. The original key shows the theft light and no RPM jump, until I stop cranking and then a very small bounce.

    The battery had a charger/monitor on it a week ago, but I'll put it back on.

    I'll run to the store for a bit, and then retry the spare key to see what happens.
    #15
  16. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Previous posts stated there was no power to the fuel pump. Later posts seem to indicate that after replacing the CCRM, there was power.

    You never explained how you tested the power to the fuel pump. Which point did you use to test?

    OBTW, the DTCNONE would tend to indicate no PATS problems. However, the cluster may only store one code. So if the last start was sucessful, then it make sense DTCNONE is stored.

    However, if the theft light comes on each time it cranks without starting, that is a hard symptom to ignore. Especially if the theft light does not come on when it does start.

    Anyway, this does sound like progress. Even if only a little.

    Perhaps consider contacting a lock smith that works on a frequently with PATS systems. This may be as simple as re-programming the keys you have. In any case, a pro will have the better diagnostic tools to trouble shoot a PATS problem.
    #16
  17. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    The mechanic said no power to the fuel pump, and he said he traced the issue to the CCRM. I did not ask for specifics, but I'm under the assumption he used a volt meter. Prior to replacement, I could not hear the fuel pump priming. Post replacement, I could hear the fuel pump priming. Definitively the CCRM? I don't know, doesn't seem that way now.


    I tried the spare key today. I turned the key to "run", theft light went out after a couple seconds. I then cranked, and the car fired up with the first try, but ran roughly. The theft light did not come back on at all. Pressing the accelerator hard caused a large dip in RPM before rising. Slowly pressing the accelerator caused the RPMs to rise relatively smoothly. I shut off the car, and was unable to get it restarted with two subsequent crankings. I didn't try further, as I went to work.
    #17
  18. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    IMO, based upon your latest post, here are the things that come to mind.

    Blown Fuse F2.8/F2.2/F2.21 in the Central Junction box. This has been mentioned before to check the fuses. Did you CHECK the fuses? Recommend that you re-check again as a blown F2.2 or F2.8 fuse or any other engine management fuse would exactly match the latest symptom. Remember, it can be hard to see from above if the fuse is blown. There are plenty of ppl out there that thought a fuse was good only to actually pull it and find out it was not.

    To cross check this, test for +12 volts at the RD/YE wire on the EGR vacuum solenoid. Next test for +12 volts at the BN/WH wire on the fuel rail pressure sensor. Use a known good ground such as the battery negative. Post.

    Fuel starvation: what is the condition of the fuel in the tank? Stale fuel could be contributing to this problem. But since the car has a new fuel pump, my gut tells me that the tank would have been drained at that time. Assuming the work was actually done.

    It could also be that the stale fuel has worked it's way through the system. Perhaps try letting the car idle long enough to get to full operating temperature. This could have the added benefit of throwing additional DTC codes and the clues they will provide.

    From here, it would be handy to know what the fuel pressure is. By far, the easiest way is with an ODB2 scanner that can monitor opperational data. This would also give us access to other PCM PID's that may quickly give a solution.

    Do you know anyone with an ODB2 scanner?

    Regarding the fuel pressure measurement, the 2000 does have a schrader valve on the fuel rail. A mechanical fuel pressure gauge can be rented from the auto parts store.

    This problem could end up being the fuel pump driver module (FPDM) in the trunk. The part is not cheap enough that I would normally recommend changing it for diagnostic reasons. Hence the reasons for more detailed tests.

    While you are at it, go back and check for things like loose/disconnected hoses. Any disconnected sensors. Check the vacuum refrence line from the fuel pressure sensor. Is it connected? Sure would be a shame to get this close and find out it really is the < $10 part.

    It does sound like progress is being made.
    #18
  19. timeless2

    timeless2 Vi Veri Veni Versum Vicus Vici Admin Dude

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    Moved to SN95 4.6 Tech.
    #19
  20. mndtrp

    mndtrp New Member

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    I rechecked the fuses. The 20 amp fuse for the fuel pump, I'm not sure how that correlates to your numbering system, was blown. I had already replaced this fuse once, recently. I replaced it again, tried to start with no success (with the spare key, no theft light, at least that seems to have been somewhat resolved), and then noticed that the fuse had blown again.

    Could you point me in the direction of the EGR solenoid?

    The fuel smells bad when the car does start. If they did replace the fuel pump, they may have just put the old fuel back in the tank. I'm not sure, but there is only about 1/4 of a tank. Do you recommend adding fresh gas?

    The car didn't start, but I did get two codes. 37FF and 5284.

    My coworker lent me an OBDLink scanner and install disc. I'm waiting for my neighbor to get home, so I can borrow her laptop.

    If you still recommend I do this, in light of the fuse issue, I'll stop by tomorrow or Saturday.

    As before, thank you for your continued help.

    Thanks also to the admin who put this in the correct forum.
    #20

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