2005 GT vs 03/04 Mach 1

Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by Mach428, Dec 8, 2003.


  1. Mach428

    Mach428 New Member

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    I though it would be intersting to here some of the opinions everyone here at stang net has. A few questions I've wondered are, Is the New Mustang going to be Mach 1/2001 Cobra performance levels or will it be a little tuned down for pratical and comfort reasons. The new mustang is Just around the corner, will the new GT pull similar performance as compared to 93/94 or will it pull ahead?

    My First Stang net post :rlaugh:
     
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  2. Boomer v3.8

    Boomer v3.8 New Member

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    Everyone can speculate till the cows come home, but until you actually have someone who drove both, you won't get an honest answer.

    We don't know the final numbers, we don't know the final weight, we don't know the transmission and we don't know the gearing available. Too many variables left out...
     
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  3. Z28x

    Z28x New Member

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    My guess is the '05 GT will be about as fast in the 1/4mi. as the current gen. DOHC 4.6L cars (give or take a tenth or two)
     
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  4. Omegalock

    Omegalock New Member

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    It would greatly benefit Ford if they were as fast as the current generation Machs(it might make a few Mach owners mad but oh well). Even people who normally bash the Mustang have to admit the good performance of the Mach 1's. So putting out a Stang that's as fast as the fastest N.A. Stangs from the last generation would be a good idea. If the weight is the same that should give us mid 13s stock. Still though I must admit I was really hoping this car would be a low 13 second car in stock form.
     
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  5. 351CJ

    351CJ New Member

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    Look at the photos of the 4.6L 3 valve engine. See how big the intake runners are, the size of the dual throttle body and note the more aggressive exhaust manifolds. Then remember that the 3V has VCT.

    The 3V looks like at least 310 HP and 320 lb ft to me.

    Of course with its 25 year newer unibody and longer wheelbase its going to be a lot more comfortable too.
     
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  6. GelatiCruiser

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    I'm with Z28X....I think it will be comparable to the 99+ numbers except for hp. I'd expect this engine to respond better to mods though. It's 3v correct?
     
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  7. oogtdude

    oogtdude Banned

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    it will still be a GT, thig big guns arrive in 06
     
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  8. DBMSTNG

    DBMSTNG I fantasize about it being BIG!
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    the 3V heads flow just as well as the current 4V heads. and with the addition of VVT. it should produce slightly more low end power than the Mach. it's impossible to tell which would be faster though since we do not know the weight or gearing of the new GT.

    btw, the old 5.4L and 4.6L were rated at the same hp. if the same holds true with the new engines, the 05 GT will produce about 325-330hp. the new 5.4L produces just 15rwhp less than the 5.7L Hemi even though the Hemi is rated at 45 more hp.
     
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  9. Mach428

    Mach428 New Member

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    I'm no enginear, but wouldn't a 3v head produce more low end torque then a 4v due to the increased exaust preasure? It would kinda make sense cause is you think of it there are 2 intake vs the 1 exaust, therefore there must be that great additional torque but with the sacrifice of top end due to the exaust not being able to escape fast enough at higher rpm's. Does this concept make sense to anybody? Cause if you take the New F-150 5.4 for example its making a **** load more tq then hp. Did anyone notice the twin throttle body on the engin? It looks like the same one from the cobra and Mach 1 :D
     
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  10. 351CJ

    351CJ New Member

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    The idea that exhaust back pressure creates low end torque does not make any sense to me.

    The only way you can create power (torque) at any RPM is to get air / fuel into the cylinder and then get the exhaust gasses out. Back pressure would not create low end torque, what would create it is having high exhuast gas speeds that would give a scavanging effect to help the exhaust gasses flow out.

    What also creates low end torque is high intake air velocity at low RPM. This is done by using long intake runners. However long intake runners limit the ultimate air flow, which kills high RPM power. I'd guess that the 3V 4.6L will have some sort of muti-stage manifold that shortens the runners at high RPM, so you will get both good low end and high end power.

    In the past you also had to select cam timing based on what you wanted, low end TQ or high end power. Since the 3V engine has variable cam timing, you no longer have to make this choice. VCT can give you both good low end TQ and still have high RPM power.

    If the engineers did their job on the 4.6L 3 valve it will put out peak HP & TQ around 315 HP & 325 lb ft, not much different than the Mach 1 engine. But the 3V will have over 50 more lb ft of torque down at 2000 RPM giving it a lot more low end grunt than both the current 2V and 4V engines.
     
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  11. blkgt714

    blkgt714 New Member

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    I love reading all this speculation.. I still stand by my first statement, the GT will have no more then 280 HP out of the gates for the first couple years. Its consident on how Ford has marketed their cars before, in particular Mustangs.
     
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  12. Omegalock

    Omegalock New Member

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    And that makes no sense considering the current market situation. Also we pretty much know for sure it'll have the 3v 4.6 in it why have it so undertuned. It'd be cheaper for them to leave the 2v heads on the thing if they wanted to put the car out with just 280 hp for the first couple of years.
     
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  13. Z28x

    Z28x New Member

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    I agree, I think the 3v 4.6L needs to be at least 300HP. That seems to be the standard for V8s today. V6s are starting to put out more HP than the 2v 4.6L
     
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  14. TrueBlueCajun

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    The '05 spec sheet may say 280hp, but look at the '03 Mach 1 and Cobra numbers. Ford underrated both. I'm pretty sure the '05 GT will have over 300+ hp under the hood. :nice:
     
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  15. blkgt714

    blkgt714 New Member

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    What is the current Market situation in your opinion? Is there any other car ont he market that is all redesigned with a 300 HP powerplant for under 25k? I don't see any..

    I see redesigned V6's in the same class as the Mustanng GT going for 30-35K and having 280 HP or so.. RX8 and the 350Z are two examples. Then lets talk about the GTO.. LS1 equiped V8 car again going for over 30k..

    Think Ford is having any problem with CAFE or emissions? Think they want to pony up the extra costs? And keep the GT low in price? Do you think the average Mustang buyer cares about HP? Most Mustang buyers are chicks in V6's. Only a small fraction of the Mustang buyer market are hardcore HP junkies like us.

    EDIT: Oh, and undertuning cars is Ford's bread and butter.. The new Mustang will sale with 260 HP or 280 HP on it's looks alone. Ford will then probably up the HP levels 3-4 yrs down the road to capture some more sales. Like they did with the 99+ GT..

    If Ford indeed releases a car with a 300 HP powerplant for under 25k, it'll be an industry breakthrough in this current market situation.
     
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  16. yellow5.0cobra

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    I understand the V6 "outsells" the V8's but...

    Unfortunately, the V6 Mustangs have a much lower profit margin than GTs or Cobras and make up over two-thirds of all Mustangs sold.

    Anyhow, on a side note: I think the new model will be all around better because...

    "The all-new Mustang, which will go on sale late next year, made its debut at the North American International Auto Show last month in Detroit. It, along with the F-150 pickup, is considered crucial to Ford's ongoing turnaround.

    Ford's U.S. market share fell to 21.3 percent in 2002 from 22.9 percent in 2001, but company executives have predicted gains in all global markets this year."

    THEY ARE DESPERATE.

    I believe Ford KNOWS who their target market it, and that is 18-35yr old males, and 18+ females.
     
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  17. Omegalock

    Omegalock New Member

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    Good business dictates you set the precident not follow along with the rest of the sheep. As of this point Ford isn't even doing a good at that. The current market situation dictates Ford has an opportunity to take the market place by the throat that it hasn't had since 1965. A hot fresh new car that has no direct domestic competition. By all accounts that will not last long.

    And you are seeing a lot of people that would potentially buy a Mustang GT ready to buy those cars. Go and spend a little more time on GM and Mopar boards. Every fan of the RWD V8 American pony car is waiting with baited breath for this car. If it's essentially just as weak as the current Stang none of those people are going to jump ship to Ford. And you mentioned the RX8 and the 305Z you'd be surprised how many import buyers would be swayed by a car with substantially more power for less cost. As it stands now we have Stang people jumping ship for those cars because the cost and performance are comparable with a loaded Stang instead of vice versa. The new Stang NEEDS better performance numbers to get buyers back let alone keep what they currently have. If Chevy or Daimler puts out a pony car in the next few years it'll have an adverse effect on the new Stang(especially if it is able to hand the current Stang it's ass) so they should take the initiative and control the market now and not put out something weak to begin with to have a tenuous hold to begin with.

    And when even those hardcore are slowly moving away to another car that will hurt the Stang. Also you are failing to think about the fact Ford has no domestic competition right now for this car. They can have a strangle hold on the market with minimal effort by simply getting Chevy boys to jump ship. You are right the average buyer only cares about the looks and will be buying a V6 however but considering we are debating the merrits of having a more powerful GT that is the key difference. The GT is important and it's not an after thought or else they wouldn't even bother with it.

    It makes no sense to detune the things that far. If Ford was going to keep the power output the same or within 20 horses they would just keep the current engine in the car. We already know they are bucking their recent history engine wise by even putting the new 3v in during the first year. It stands to reason that if they are going through the trouble of putting a new engine in the car they would also make use of it's potential. Cost wise it makes no sense to put a new engine in the car then have identical numbers to the previous model giving it no distinction(to the people that would be buying a GT) over the previous car thusly kind of defeating the point and pupose of a new engine entirely.

    And that's exactly what Ford NEEDS for this car. Anything less and the whole point of a a new design AND a new engine rapidly loses it's point. Guys that are serious about performance won't buy it and they will loose customers. If Ford honestly does put out a car with 260 or 280 horses I will not be buying one and I know I'm not alone in this. I very likely will look into buying a fast import a new Camaro or maybe even a fast truck. Ford I think knows there are a TON of guys like myself and they aren't going to risk blowing such a large market of potential buyers by putting out a weak Mustang.
     
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  18. Mach428

    Mach428 New Member

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    Just revising a past topic....
     
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  19. SadbutTrue

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    The Mach will be faster by a couple tenths. Will run neck and neck though. Roughly same power, rear gears (with manual), transmission and the other goods. The 05 auto will prolly hand a 04 Mach auto its ass thoguh.
     
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  20. kirkyg

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    How do you get the mach will be faster??? They are very simliar in weight...the new 05 GT will also have 3.55's standard just like the mach, the engine puts out basically the same level of hp and torque (dont know if they are overrated or not yet but i would guess a little bit). Sounds to me like they'll be running neck and neck. OH btw, the weight distribution on the new stang is 52/48 meaning it'll launch much better too. Who knows maybe the 05 will BEAT a mach 1. I wouldn't be surprised.

    kirkyg
     
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