2007, the Mustang will have Competition, Camaro is Alive AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter GM Dude
- Start date
-
Sponsors (?)
mattkimsey
I've compiled a list to recap this thread:
yep a 5.0 would be a lot better but even then your at a disadvantage when compared to the 6.0 chevy or the 5.7 hemi. Look at the old 5.0's you can't make the power of a ls1 with a cam without stroking it to a 347ci(both cars emissions legal)
You have to remember that the reason the Mustang killed off the Camaro slowly over the last 10-15 years was that it's NOT just about who has the bigger engine.
Sure the LT1s and LS1s walked on the Mustang's 302 and 4.6 from a performance perspective. The Camaro and Firebird were so damn fast that they motored themselves straight into COMBINED sales of less than half of the Mustang.
The Mustang was more 'liveable', and that's what killed the Camaro, fundamentally. I'd love a 6L Mustang as much as you, but the masses wouldn't, nor will they be as in love with an LS2 Camaro as the performance crowd will be. A good V6 and the moderate-but-competent 4.6L is perfect in the mainstream Mustang. For the people that want more, that's what the Cobra/Mach/whatever is for.
Sure the LT1s and LS1s walked on the Mustang's 302 and 4.6 from a performance perspective. The Camaro and Firebird were so damn fast that they motored themselves straight into COMBINED sales of less than half of the Mustang.
The Mustang was more 'liveable', and that's what killed the Camaro, fundamentally. I'd love a 6L Mustang as much as you, but the masses wouldn't, nor will they be as in love with an LS2 Camaro as the performance crowd will be. A good V6 and the moderate-but-competent 4.6L is perfect in the mainstream Mustang. For the people that want more, that's what the Cobra/Mach/whatever is for.
Actually I believe if you look at the history of the Camaro what killed the Camaro and Firebird had nothing to do with its powerplant it was all design and functionality. When the Mustang looked like a dressed up Pinto in '74 - '78 everyone(including me) thought it looked like a joke. The Camaro stayed to its own and stayed big, power is in straight lines concept(let the owner tweak up the bottle neck offered at the stealership, mod away).
In other words the Mustang took the redesign hit when they could afford a cultural change during the gas crisis, Camaro design missed its opportunity. Over the long haul the Mustangs ability to adapt and be accepted as a Pinto in a miniskirt during the gas crunch allowed the '79 and laters to stay small and nimble(just not enough power). No drastic design changes. The weak spot for Chevy was never its engines for sure, it was design. The Camaro and Firebird stayed larger, less nimble and looked more like big darts with wheels. The Mustangs name, balance, and nimble footed stance allowed it survive. It better fit the times. The Camaro was on a slippery slope from '74 on(IMO), I'm actually surprised it lasted as long as it did. The IROC postponed the end and gave it a second gasp but the nimble agility(day to day daily fun factor) of the Mustang is what bought sales.
Chevy was very fortunate in 1955 to come up with a ground breaking design that would carry them a long way. http://www.cdps.k12.ms.us/chs/eric/eric.htm
Interesting to read up on that motor if you are ever curious. Back on topic, I would not count the Camaro out - Chevy may not make that mistake twice. I think the Camaro could not redesign because the fanboyz would not accept a small nimble Camaro(cultural changes are rough). The Camaro didn't lose for good, it just went into the penalty box for a makeover. To verify what I'm saying here look at the physical dimensions of the last Camaro and the Mustang of that same year. The only comparison is they are both RWD American cars. If you've driven both the Camaro and Firebird they feel like the front end you can't see is always half a block in front of you waiting to get clipped off and if you ride in the back its like a wild-west wagon ride(strap in - bumps sukz).
The Mustang was nimble and sure footed in comparison. Imports bring a different challenge, but for the Mustang they should ignore imports and worry about Chevy's return to the game. Hope they(Ford) are ready. I think we agree that there is more than the engine size, I feel Chevy's engine just kept them in the running to extend the Camaro's life. It was IMO Camaro's design disadvantage as a complete car that destined it to fail, the engine kept it alive longer. I think there is a lot of potential for the new '05 Mustang body style, I look forward to see what direction Ford takes it....
Sidenote: If you ever want to check out something funny IMO, take a good look at the interior design and instrumentation of the '68 Camaro and its inboard style head lights - then look at the '71 interior design and intrumentation and in board tail lights. Seems like from '70 - '71 Ford and Chevy swapped designs a little. Why we'll never know. Furtunately in '74 Ford woke up a little, both Camaro and Mustang interiors seemed to use a similar motif.
In other words the Mustang took the redesign hit when they could afford a cultural change during the gas crisis, Camaro design missed its opportunity. Over the long haul the Mustangs ability to adapt and be accepted as a Pinto in a miniskirt during the gas crunch allowed the '79 and laters to stay small and nimble(just not enough power). No drastic design changes. The weak spot for Chevy was never its engines for sure, it was design. The Camaro and Firebird stayed larger, less nimble and looked more like big darts with wheels. The Mustangs name, balance, and nimble footed stance allowed it survive. It better fit the times. The Camaro was on a slippery slope from '74 on(IMO), I'm actually surprised it lasted as long as it did. The IROC postponed the end and gave it a second gasp but the nimble agility(day to day daily fun factor) of the Mustang is what bought sales.
Chevy was very fortunate in 1955 to come up with a ground breaking design that would carry them a long way. http://www.cdps.k12.ms.us/chs/eric/eric.htm
Interesting to read up on that motor if you are ever curious. Back on topic, I would not count the Camaro out - Chevy may not make that mistake twice. I think the Camaro could not redesign because the fanboyz would not accept a small nimble Camaro(cultural changes are rough). The Camaro didn't lose for good, it just went into the penalty box for a makeover. To verify what I'm saying here look at the physical dimensions of the last Camaro and the Mustang of that same year. The only comparison is they are both RWD American cars. If you've driven both the Camaro and Firebird they feel like the front end you can't see is always half a block in front of you waiting to get clipped off and if you ride in the back its like a wild-west wagon ride(strap in - bumps sukz).
The Mustang was nimble and sure footed in comparison. Imports bring a different challenge, but for the Mustang they should ignore imports and worry about Chevy's return to the game. Hope they(Ford) are ready. I think we agree that there is more than the engine size, I feel Chevy's engine just kept them in the running to extend the Camaro's life. It was IMO Camaro's design disadvantage as a complete car that destined it to fail, the engine kept it alive longer. I think there is a lot of potential for the new '05 Mustang body style, I look forward to see what direction Ford takes it....
Sidenote: If you ever want to check out something funny IMO, take a good look at the interior design and instrumentation of the '68 Camaro and its inboard style head lights - then look at the '71 interior design and intrumentation and in board tail lights. Seems like from '70 - '71 Ford and Chevy swapped designs a little. Why we'll never know. Furtunately in '74 Ford woke up a little, both Camaro and Mustang interiors seemed to use a similar motif.
One thing I haven't seen on this thread is, If this car was to be redone like this would it meet crash standards. GM is also in somewhat of a predicament. With this new rearwheel drive platform comes new problems. The Camaro didn't sell and neither is the GTO. Talk is abound about a rear drive Monte, Impala, Grand prix etc. Even though there is platform sharing It doesn't seem wise to do this. For the most part the current crop still sells. To change over to rear wheel doesn't make marketing sense. It was only two years ago that the Camaro was around and nobody bought it. To bring it and some others back you might lose customer base.
SVTdriver
Founding Member
skywarp said:
You had to bring up sales of the GTO.
You know that is going to bring up the usuall excuses. "It was released in winter" Dealers are marking it up too much".Again there were other things that caused the Camaro not to sell RWD being likely the last of these things. The GTO isn't selling because it's boring and it's expensive. GM and their RWD platform just might be hitting a change in the buyers market at just the right time. Notice the 300C and the Magnum are far from selling poorly and both are RWD.skywarp said:
Omegalock said:
You bring up a good point. Whats similar between both the 300C and Magnum? They have four doors. Ford should seize upon this and bring over the Falcon and beat GM to the punch. Chrysler guys have been wanting a RWD anything for years. That could possibly explain that particular sales number.
SVTdriver said:You had to bring up sales of the GTO.
That car is good in a couple of ways but falls short in others. Interior is way nice, but looks and the typical fleece from the GM dealer drives people away.
Enzora
The member formerly known as Nazgul
FallenPhoenix
New Member
Omegalock said:
Was anyone else excited about the return of the GTO, then go to see one at a dealer and think "that's it?"
All of pontiac's passenger cars look the same to me
Seen it, Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. Oh OK, I'm awake again. Boring. Looks like a rental at a local Budget. From the outside, no hi-po just slow-go.FallenPhoenix said:Was anyone else excited about the return of the GTO, then go to see one at a dealer and think "that's it?"
All of pontiac's passenger cars look the same to me
I'm sure power is good, but appearance, ehhhh. :o(
mattkimsey
I've compiled a list to recap this thread:
Like someone said above the 4.6 isn't too bad for sales because its not too much muscle for the average guy or gal and it makes just enough power BARELY. The fbody did have its faults, probably due to having such a nice motor like a ls1 they cheaped out on some parts. The fbody had they crappiest rear (7.5) GM ever made, the interior quality probably goes to the Mustang, having owned one I can tell you the car feels bulky, its long and no matter how tall you are its difficult to see over the dash out onto the hood(probably another reason girls felt more comfy in the Mustang), I would say more people liked the outside looks of the mustang better.
mattkimsey
I've compiled a list to recap this thread:
What is retro when its 7-8 yrs old?...old oldness? I hope the 05' doesnt turn out like the pt cruiser. Retro styling seems like fad to me, I wonder how people will feel about it when the newness wears off.
szer0
New Member
mattkimsey said:
I don't think the PT cruiser is at all like the Mustang in terms of retro cues.
I do agree its a fad right now. I just hope Ford rights the coat tails correctly. I think the '05 will be a hit, since many age groups like the classic lines it should take off. The PT simulates a body style most might like in hot rods but don't necessarily have to own. The classic lines of the Mustang seem to generate emotion, the type that most want to own. We'll soon find out. If Ford keeps the initial momentum going with specialty vehicles(Mach1, RamAir option, Shelby) there is a lot of material to keep the customers coming in/back.... Maybe the 4.6 is like the original 289, replaced by the 5.0L(same as the 302 in '68). Ford could re-enact its first gen' success if played right. If hyped right, may even pull some import boyz back.mattkimsey said:
are you kidding me!!!!!!!
The one thing i hate about these damn forums is the bull****ting that goes around Camero or mustang? You for real?? Camero has always owened Fords ass and always will. Competion you ask for? Whats not out there that cant hang with ford. Be realist and stop with this bull ****!! My little SRT-4 will spank the **** out of any of your Stock Mustangs. They ask for competion please!!!!!!!!
The one thing i hate about these damn forums is the bull****ting that goes around Camero or mustang? You for real?? Camero has always owened Fords ass and always will. Competion you ask for? Whats not out there that cant hang with ford. Be realist and stop with this bull ****!! My little SRT-4 will spank the **** out of any of your Stock Mustangs. They ask for competion please!!!!!!!!
SVTdriver
Founding Member
Wow this must be a good topic. It's even attracted rice to the conversation. Yea just another ignorable troll.
I think that there maybe a few rice boyz that will switch to real hp. With either the mustang or a possible camaro. But it will depend on the size of the wings available for it. It will have to be at least as tall as the srt-4's rice wing.
I think that there maybe a few rice boyz that will switch to real hp. With either the mustang or a possible camaro. But it will depend on the size of the wings available for it. It will have to be at least as tall as the srt-4's rice wing.
Thanks, Mr. SRT-4 Fanboy, for that great laugher. Now take your Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang engine and go to the track, where you can brag all day about your 14 second ETs.
Is it just me, but why are the ricer wankers so jealous they have to post on a Mustang board? Do they have nowhere else to go?
Midnight
Founding Member
srt4life said:The one thing i hate about these damn forums is the bull****ting that goes around Camero or mustang? You for real?? Camero has always owened Fords ass and always will. Competion you ask for? Whats not out there that cant hang with ford. Be realist and stop with this bull ****!! My little SRT-4 will spank the **** out of any of your Stock Mustangs. They ask for competion please!!!!!!!!
You'd think, if you were gonna say how much Chevy owns Ford's ass, you'd be able to at least spell "Camaro" right.
Similar threads
