I'm coming in late, so I apologize to the OP... Normally I would catch this kind of thread early on...
I grabbed a couple quotes as I was reading through this... I tried not to hit topics that had already been resolved, sorry if I missed anything...
2000xp8,
I have pulled a fair number of your comments out because you tend to make some generalizations and assumptions... and then post your beliefs (based on assumptions) as FACTS.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I do feel some clarifications are needed for others who may be reading along and just getting started...
You can run the stock computer just fine.
It's done all the time without tuning equipment or programs.
a 351 based engine is really just a bigger 302.
Yes, it will run... but even the difference between 302 to 351 cubic inch introduces error into the tune.
302 to 408w is even more of a difference.
In the Fox computers, cubic inches is used in the calculation for engine LOAD... which is then used in determining timing and fueling.
While I will agree that a 408w will run on a stock setting A9L/A9P/X3Z ecu.... I would also like to emphasize that it is NOT ideal.
My 408w ran on a stock X3Z ecu using a 'calibrated' C&L MAF... but it wasn't ideal. Using the same MAF, I found great improvements by just tuning the ecu... but I'll go into that a little more later on...
As far as tunning run the stock A9L computer and harness and use A SCT chip all will be good.Also when you order your cam get it to use the current 5.0 fireing order and once again all is good.I went threw this exact same thing when doing my 351 based motor! BUT if you use the old firing order you will need to repin the harness!So much easier to get the cam for the current 5.0 HO order.peace
John, moving the injector wires to correct the cam firing order issue isn't recommended... as it leaves the O2's correcting a couple of wrong injectors due to injectors being swapped between banks. (O2's are used to correct their own bank only)
If everything is good in the tune, then you probably wouldn't notice... but as soon as something gets out of whack, and the ecu starts correcting based on O2 feedback... fueling accuracy will rapidly degrade...
For reference...
Ford Fuel Injection » Injector Firing Order
It seems like getting a 408 to run well without a tune would seriously depend on using a really good "calibrated" MAF meter and correct injectors. Otherwise, you'll probably be SOL without tuning. Of course, there are lots of guys who FUBAR the whole MAF meter/injector thing on otherwise very mild 302s and they still don't run right without tuning.
Exactly
However, a 408w still will see benefit from a tune. The degree of the improvement will depend on injector size, cam, exhaust, etc...
Yes, a 408w can and will run with a properly 'calibrated' MAF... but it leaves room for improvement.
John, you needed a chip because you made the mistake of using a lightning meter.
I don't see the point in that meter when you can simply buy the right calibrated meter for the job.
That meter has no business on a foxbody, i realize people use it, but i don't see how it's a good budget meter when they pay $100 for them, then need a $500+ dyno tune to run it.
Besides the fact, that the only reason they are available is because lightning guys replaced their meter with something better.
For guys that already have the tuning gear (Moats/Tweecer, laptop, wideband, etc.) then what sense does it make to buy a 'calibrated' MAF? Absolutely NONE!
Also, a $500 dyno tune isn't always needed to run an LMAF, Seems like most guys these days are tuning themselves...
The LMAF is Ford quality, reliable, and accurate.
The LMAF is not only available used from Lightning owners who 'got something better' LOL
The $100 dollar deals are on NEW meters... not some used POS as you are trying to imply.
Would I call using an LMAF a 'mistake'?
No... not at all.
But I suppose if you don't know how to tune your own car, it would appear to be a 'mistake'.
To call anderson ford and get a PMAS (i'm told that they are the only ones with any left).
Or get a dbx from them.
Might as well do the matching power pipe while he's at it.
My opinion...
The dbx is a major waste of money.
Instead of investing your money in a
programmable MAF, you could invest your money in a Tuning system like Moates/Tweecer/etc... and then have a
programmable ecu.
The power and capability of a tuning system will far surpass the power and capability of a programmable MAF.
I'm going by a phone call i made to someone that has been using calibrated mass air meter for over 20 years. Someone that has more tuning and mustang experience than this entire board combined.
Ignore it? It's hard to ignore bad advice. Then again, what the hell, it's not your money you are spending.
You seem to respond to posts that you don't actually know the answers to, case in point your first post in this thread.
If you don't know the correct answers, that's fine, just don't go in there and make one up though, something that you have done more than once.
Amazing... in this single quote you have stated that you don't know the answer, you only know what some one else told you on the phone AND you then continue to criticize another for not 'knowing' the answer himself.
How many MAF meters have YOU calibrated on a bench?
How many cars have YOU tuned with each major brand of MAF?
How many cars have YOU tuned with your precious DBX meter?
YOU... not what some one told you over the phone.
The way I see it, you are nothing more than copy&paste internet expert.
Until you can post what YOU have learned first hand... stop telling people what the best meter is. Have something of your own to back it up... not what someone (who is in business to make sales btw) told you over the phone.
Not really, how many guys here do you really see that own or run shops with a dyno, and do tuning? That answer is almost none.
About the only one i know of is Rick, who i happened to exchange conversation with from time to time, who also seems to be pretty smart and experienced.
Most others are just backyard mechanics, which there is nothing wrong with, but they know nothing about how to do tuning programs, especially on cars more than just their own.
Ok,
So you just discredited the knowledge and experience of everyone on this board with the exception of Rick.
You do realize that you have just discredited yourself as well, right?
Or are you more knowledgeable than everyone else because you 'exchange conversations' with knowledgeable people?
From what you have posted, you don't have a dyno... you just talk to guys like Rick and other 'experts' then get on the internet to regurgitate what they said to make you look smarter than you are.
This is the kind of posting activity that gets Myths and Rumors started.
You don't have the experience or background information to take what some one else tells you over the phone, and make the blanket generalizations that you do.
Anyone ever sit in a circle at school as a kid, and play the game where you tell the person on your right a story... then see how the story changed by the time it made it full circle?
That is exactly how reliable information from 2000xp8 is
I was here to start this section, and it started out as being something pretty cool.
Posts like yours just dumb down the whole section though... If you don't have any of your own thoughts to share, then STFU