306+what= 325 streetable horsepower

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by mytight95, Sep 4, 2005.


  1. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    Ok guys now i have been saving for a set of 165's for a couple months, tired of playing around with these factory heads, but i am wondering. I have a block in the shop, and was planning on building either a 306 or 347........306 wouldn't wreak as much havoc on my budget. So here are some questions, i would like answers, links, or general opinions etc..



    Can i take a 306 with around 10:1 compression, a set of AFR 165's, a good cam, and either an Edelbrock performer or Performer RPM, and make 325-350 at the wheels with a streetable combo, (with tuning of course),.

    If so what kind of cam would i have to have CUSTOM or what? I know FTI would be a very good option, but could it be done without a custom cam....

    Would this motor be pretty reliable, say if i wanted to go on a road trip etc..... 2-300 miles tops...


    Is anyone putting up these kinds of numbers with just a 306 or is it gonna take the extra cubic inches that a 347 has to make that kind of power.....


    What are some good options for pistons etc., what are the bets kind of rings etc..., i know people are gonna say just buy a shortblock, but i am planning on taking the time and making this the first motor that i have built......I will have local help if needed, one of my buds works at our local machine shop, so if all else fails he will finish the assembly....


    Anyhow, i guess thats all i can come up with for now, Sorry So Long, imput is much appreciated.



    jason
    #1
  2. 94GTLaserRC

    94GTLaserRC Squint as you approach, lest you be blinded by my

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    Ernan Says "here it comes... dushbag"
    I dont know what the EXACT HP will be. With the right combo and the 306, I dont see why not. Either way, it will be a fun car to drive...12's are attainable.

    RC
    #2
  3. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    well i was saving to put the 165's on the car how it sits, but the engine has some mileage, and i was planning on building the other one anyhow. So i think i will have the longblock complete before it goes in the car,

    Plan to have the Edelbrock intake i have now ported or change to the RPM upper, go with the AFR's, and pretty much all the same fuel system, and other mods etc. i have now.....


    I was just gonna put some hyper pistons in the block with factory rods, and crank, and prolly some total seal rings from what i have been reading about them....


    I know some of you guys have been researching motors for a while now so give me your imput....



    jason
    #3
  4. SeventyMach1

    SeventyMach1 Keep it lubed .... keep it straight .... and keep

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    PM Rick ..... I'm sure he has the answers you're looking for. I think he hangs out in 5.0 Tech ......


    Better yet, post this over there & he may chime in.
    #4
  5. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    I am right around that but FWHP(317 est) not RWHP. 270/.85 = 317. I am using a factor of 15% loss through the drivetrain. Can anyone confirm the accuracy of that formula or is it more loss throught the drivetrain?
    #5
  6. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    i have already put down over 250 to the wheels, with no tune and lean as hell with the stock heads etc., i am talking about 325-350 RWHP, after the suspension i am working on now is finished, i think i am just gonna enjoy the car, while building the other block up.........


    Justin, thanks i will post it there as well......


    jason
    #6
  7. RIO5.0

    RIO5.0 Mustang Master

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    Well if you look at what GTJake put down... with a combo like your talking, then do a 306 for budget reasons, I would think you be there...
    I was thinking of having my rotating assy refreshened and balanced this Winter, a 306 is not alot of money...
    I would def say a custom is gonna get those numbers your after...time and time again they put out the bigger HP numbers...
    #7
  8. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    i think those numbers would be pretty dang fun on the street and the occasionnal track trip i take....... I think i am gonna quit wanting the fastest car possible and maybe just build a fun street car for now....... Get the fast one later.......or maybe buy just a drag car i don't care about hacking up to put a turbo and stuff on.......



    jason
    #8
  9. Rootus

    Rootus Officially Addicted

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    350 might be a bit of a stretch, but I could see 320-330 without a lot of difficulty. I managed 310 with a 100,000 mile shortblock.
    #9
  10. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

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    Heres the deal. You're building a 306, so put in a GOOD piston with deeper reliefs so you can run bigger cam/valves. Sounds like you decided on afr's, use the 185's, not the 165's. Use an rpm manifold with a good custom grind cam or an anderson motorsport cam and enjoy. Have the rpm lower ported. You will easily hit 350+ rwhp depending on the cam and rest of the combo. 400rwhp is attainable if done right and it will be streetable. I'm in the process of helping one of my friends do a new combo in his car. Its a 306 with afr 185's, rpm II intake and an AFM N-61 cam. It should do around 350rwhp and be able to be driven anywhere as a STREET car should.
    #10
  11. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    YES!

    I know Ed can make it happen based on my experience of working with him.

    YES!

    Jake did it with a stock block!

    I won't get involved with with specific details about parts other than to say don't do something like low tension rings or any other kind of Race Car only thing due to the fact that your car is a Street Car.

    I answered all of your Q's ...... now for the reasons about my answers.

    I'm gonna stick to my findings from my car and my past general experience of being around this stuff for a year or two.

    First thing to think about is if you go 306, you most likely will have a shop set it all up.That should give you 10rwhp, give or take, due to the balance, lower friction from a pro setup, etc.

    You see lots of stock block AFR/FTI/EDEL combos at 300 - 310rwhp and the 326rwhp stock block combo of Jake's.

    Jake's combo does have a port job on his lower which most of the other similar combos do not have. I suspect his cam is a little hotter than most of the rest but again, that is just a guess on my part. Never the less, his stock block combo did make your rwhp goal.

    After my experience with my cam from Ed ...... I now know I hosed up by being too conservative with my many phone conversations and emails when working with Ed. :bang: I had very little tuning experience at that time so I had no idea about how effective one could be at self tuning to address drivability issues. :shrug:

    Keep in mind my car is a weekend toy but never the less.....................

    With what I've learned about self tuning ...... I can say I would tell Ed to go hotter with the cam specs if I built the same combo again. Like Jake did, I'd open up the intake a bit for greater airflow. I don't think 325 to 350rwhp would be impossible with those two changes helping out.

    So there you have it! :D

    I feel I can obtain your goals with a stock block and you are going to use a 306 which will give you a few extra rwhp to sweeten the deal all that much more. :banana:

    For this kind of performance you will be using 93 gasoline and these days the good stuff is gettin kinda pricey. :rlaugh:

    You most likely will have to upgrade your cooling system if you have not already done so.

    Just some of my thoughts I guess :shrug:

    Later
    Grady
    #11
  12. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    i already have a high flow pump, and a fluidyne radiator....

    This is sounding very doable..... i look to finish it within the next 8 months..... have an event i want to make......lol :biggrin:

    I will have to give Ed a call, and talk to him about how streetable the cam would be, and what lift etc. he thinks i might should go with, that'll kinda help determine what pistons i use................


    Good info... anything else anyone wants to add feel free....


    AFR 185's huh.....i don't really want to go that route, so i may just fall a hair short of my goal, Grady you think i can do it with the 165's from what i read in your post though.


    thanks so far for all the good info......... and are you guys referring to GTJAKE, i will have to go the FAQ and look at combos.....


    jason
    #12
  13. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

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    Why not? They're about the same price as ther 165's. The power potential is a TON more though. If you use the right piston like a probe, JE or whatever you'll have plenty of clearance. Shoot for at least 10.5:1.

    Ed's not gonna tell you "what lift to run". If you use him for your cam, he designs it after you know what combo you're gonna run.

    I wouldn't worry about streetability, i'd worry about making POWER :D Think about it, Ed can design you a weak cam for the same price as a powerful cam.

    Like Grady said, I too learned something from my first custom cam. The first one was way too mild. I made sure I asked for an aggressive on this time. This cam has 12-14* more duration and required 20 more lbs on the seat for spring pressure :)
    #13
  14. 96darkhorse

    96darkhorse Founding Member

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    dont wanna steal the thread but can you achieve as many hp as mytight95 is trying to reach on a stock block with high compression JE pistons with deeper reliefs so you can run bigger cam/valves, some ported TFS heads and a cam like a comp cam XE274HR? i ask this because i have an inside hookup on JE and was thinking of this myself
    #14
  15. mytight95

    mytight95 Active Member

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    no problem, Darkhorse.......... the more tech i get in this thread about engines and combos the better :nice:


    and i thought there was around a 300 dollar price difference in the 185's versus the 165's............

    jason
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  16. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

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    Nope! $25 difference according to FTI's site. Go with the bigger head, it WILL be worth the $25 :nice: Where else on earth could you get that much extra power for $25??? :D
    #16
  17. 94GTLaserRC

    94GTLaserRC Squint as you approach, lest you be blinded by my

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    Ernan Says "here it comes... dushbag"
    I agree with the 185's, but I disagree with attaining 400 RWHP in a "streetable" 306....Hitting 400 at the wheels is even easy with a 347 (contrary to what most people believe), let alone a 306. But Like I said, if you have an ALL MOTOR car making 330+, you will have a blast with it.

    RC
    #17
  18. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Jason

    A few more thoughts about your goals. :D

    A general rule of thumb is this...........

    In your quest for a peak number that will give you more bragging rights when showing your pull on the forums

    OR

    Give you a better performing car on the 1/4 mile strip ..................................

    Your power band is gonna be shifted up in the rpm range.

    When I got back in this hobby after several years of inactivity I found that fuel injectors, long runner intakes, roller cams, and a pcm made my beloved Ford small block behave like nothing I could have ever dreamed about. The little 302 acted so much bigger with the newer tech gadgets bolted on the same short block.

    I say that to you to point out ................
    the gadgets I talk about above help the power production in the lower and mid rpm range a lot but never the less ..........

    It is difficult to go for big power with a 302 or 306 cubic inch motor size and not start to give up some power under the curve.

    This power under the curve can be a good thing for lots of fun with a Street Car.

    If you look at the curves of AFR165/FTI/Edel combos you will see what I'm talking about.

    I challenge you to lay those curves next to some of the combos who make you say ............ WOW ..............
    Great Pull.

    You will see very noticeable differences on at least 80% of those combos you compare. :)

    Just trying to make you aware of the possibility that a high peak number will usually but not always come with a cost of power under the curve.

    Some peeps say it don't make a difference to them. :shrug:

    I say it depends on what you want or expect from your car. :D

    I've had both kinds of cars for street cars and I like the power under the curve more than the peak power kind of car. I also know I have chosen the KB blower over the Vortech for that very same reason.

    Again, you can have an outcome that is very different by how you make your plans for your combo.

    Later
    Grady
    #18
  19. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    RC

    I got to say I think like you and ...... like you ...... I have to put the word streetable in those same quote marks.

    I also got to say Mike has some good points I agree with as well.

    I've been on this forum for enough time now to see some trends the various peeps have shown.

    To cut to the chase ... which is hard for me to do :rlaugh: ... Not everybody on this forum has the same expectations from their combos.

    If you compare all of the "Streetable" combos you will see an average of about .95 to 1.10 rwhp to cubic inch motor size ratios.

    From my point of view which is based on a stock oem Ford short block and my experience with the findings from my car, that ratio is valid for a car that could be a dd.

    As you try for a ratio which yields larger rwhp to motor size ...... the word "Streetable" becomes more and more of a concern ...... IMHO.

    "Streetable" is a word that we all have NOT the same idea about.

    Later
    Grady
    #19
  20. VibrantRedGT

    VibrantRedGT "STANGNET'S PENGUIN SMACKER" Super Mod

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    The 185's are gorgeous and for the xtra few bucks well well worth it. Your goals seem right on and with some tuning very reachable. The cam will be the deciding factor in the whole combo. Make sure you do your homework in this area. We all now FTI or a custom cam to fit the combo's needs is where it's at.
    #20

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