306+what= 325 streetable horsepower

[94GTLaserRC]

One example of over 400 RWHP with a 306 and a "some what" streetable 236*-240* cam is in Joe Correia's car. And power was made at under 7000 RPM...

Recently another guy with a 308 did 417 RWHP with AFR 185. Holley intake and a 238*-244* camshaft...

Can be done without that big of a camshaft!

Ed

Hey Ed:

:OT: but I may be hitting you up next year for a cam. Im changing to a 331, probably from CHP, and keeping the Vortech at 8-10#, and eventually adding a Snow Meth Inj kit.

Toby at CHP said I can take a small credit on THEIR cam, and have on made and shipped to them for assembly into my motor.

It may be a year or more, but Ill be calling you.

Thanks
RC

 

[tmoss]

I see your gonna shorten that intake length and kick the power band up a little, huh Jake. I'd like to see any kind of track or dyno results once it's done if you do either.

 

[94DreamGT]

I guess I should chime in here since I went through all this same stuff 2 years back with a similar combo...funny how nothing changes.

Did I meet my goals? Yes
Did I exceed them? Yes
Is the car fun to drive? Yes
Am I happy with it? No

Why? I spent too much money for a car that I have to worry too much about the maintenance on that will still get beat by a stock LS1 that has had a cam thrown in it (everyone). I can't race it like I want to unless I upgrade the transmission and rear-end...more money etc...

Sorry to sound like a downer, but I guess my message is you better know EXACTLY what you want down the road before you make the plunge and spend the money.

I most likely will be selling my car soon and will get somethign with a power adder...newer and lower maintenance. But that's me...and people probably won't agree with it.

Just be sure you know what you want to do and where you want the car to be.

 

[nmcgrawj]

I guess I should chime in here since I went through all this same stuff 2 years back with a similar combo...funny how nothing changes.

Did I meet my goals? Yes
Did I exceed them? Yes
Is the car fun to drive? Yes
Am I happy with it? No

Why? I spent too much money for a car that I have to worry too much about the maintenance on that will still get beat by a stock LS1 that has had a cam thrown in it (everyone). I can't race it like I want to unless I upgrade the transmission and rear-end...more money etc...

Sorry to sound like a downer, but I guess my message is you better know EXACTLY what you want down the road before you make the plunge and spend the money.

I most likely will be selling my car soon and will get somethign with a power adder...newer and lower maintenance. But that's me...and people probably won't agree with it.

Just be sure you know what you want to do and where you want the car to be.

It sucks but u cant complain about getting beat by LS1s....their heads are just as good as out aftermarket pieces...with new technology comes better performance. Look at the new mustangs...they only have a FEW options out for intakes for example because the stock one performs just fine for the most part. Oh yea...and you are trying to build a motor with 50 less cubes to compete with another built motor with 50 more cubes than you have?

You gotta pay to play... and with all these NEW monsters coming out of the factory with insane power levels... you are gonna have to pay a pretty penny


Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

[Pokageek]

"Why? I spent too much money for a car that I have to worry too much about the maintenance on that will still get beat by a stock LS1 that has had a cam thrown in it .."

There's pro's and cons to both but No comparison in my o. I mean, mustangs have more class, they sound AWESOME, and I really could care less what an lt1 or ls1 runs. I had one and was envious of mustangs the whole time. No KIDDING!

Seriously, I like my car not because it can beat every single car on the road but because I like mustangs 1st of all and it surprises the heck out of all the new car owners. I guess it depends on where you live also. There are not many 'Maros around here and most the time they are not modded significantly if at all. I am looking at beating those evo's out there personally. We have TONS more potential than one of them and it just shows ya it's all in perspective. I know one of those owners that wshes he had as many liters as I do to work with!

I am happy with anything in the twelves. I mean how many cars out there can run that? Not many in perspective. We are bringing up our cars to the latest technology and then some AND they are sleepers. Pretty cool if you ask me.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Plus the thing i love about mustangs is that you can make it unique to YOUR personality. All those f-bodies look the same outside of a rim package. It takes SERIOUS money to customize one with paint or something else. What do you have 1 hood for the camaro to get? 2 hoods for the trans am? Body kits? Nope.

Honestly....a mustang body with a ls1 motor is the PERFECT combination IMO.

 

[Killercanary]

Paul has been reporting the results of his dads FTI package 302 with worked SMII products - 350RWHP in what is probably a truely "streetable" car.

When I said higher rpm band I should have been more specific - I bet they are all made over the stock ~6,250 rpm rev limiter which must be disabled or chipped to get around and then the supporting cast of parts has to up to the task. You don't see many 302-308 engines run on the street regularly N/A that make close to 400HP.

Wow, this thread got big in a hurry!

Anyway, let me tell you about my dad's car. Its a '91GT that is comprised of what I would call pretty common parts. Here's the breakdown of his setup...

Holley Systemax II Kit Ported by FTI and heads milled by FTI
Stock shortblock with standard bore SRP pistons
76mm C&L MAF
70mm Edelbrock T-body
30lb FMS injectors/255lph Walbro fuel pump
FTI custom cam
1.6 FMS Stud Mount Roller Rockers
Kirban adjustable fuel pressure regulator
MSD IGNITION
FMS shorty unequal length Ceramic coated headers
Bassani offroad X pipe
Borla mufflers with turn downs
ASP aluminum underdrive pulleys
Pro Motion kustom clutch
4.30 GEARS
Comp Engineering subframe connectors
Metco lower control arms, Rhode's race UCA
S&W 8 Point Roll Bar Self Installed
TKO tranny with McCloud SFI Bellhousing
Steeda Tr-Ax shifter
Auburn Drive Shaft Safety Loop
FMS 31 spline posi
Strange S/S 31 spline axles with C clip eliminators
Bogart D10 drag wheels
MT ET street tires


In this form he has recently laid down 347rwhp/338rwtq, I'm 99% sure that the peak occured at no higher than 6000rpms. This thing is a BLAST to drive on the street and at the track. Its a tiny bit choppy below say 1900-2000rpms but with the 4.30's that really isn't an issue. This car still has all the accessories it came with from the factory except for the AC which was pulled when the motor was removed. I wouldn't say its as streetable as mine, buts its also a HELL of a lot faster and makes a TON more power than me as well.

As for my car, I was the first on this board to run the AFR/FTI/Edelbrock setup from Ed. My goal was a combo that I could drive absolutely everyday because at the time it was my ONLY means of transportation. I drove it everyday for work and play as well as making the drive every week over 100miles to see my wife (then fiance) and I hit friday afternoon rush hour traffic every time too. I told Ed that I would like the car to run low 13's at around 105mph trap speeds, which back in '00 when I was building this combo was STOUT for a HCI 94-95 COUPE. As you can see the combo has delivered on that and then some. I still manage 20mpg on the highway which is a pretty increadible accomplishment IMO due to the 4.10 gears, the big 315 series tires out back, and the weight of the car. My car didn't run like it does now right out of the box, it was the attention to details as Ed put it that make the difference in why I run the way I do, and this hold true for all those that go fast NA. From what the original poster has stated so far in this thread, he sounds like he is looking for something similar to what I too was looking for. My combo makes 304rwhp/331rwtq. I shift it at 6000rpms, but I can lug it around at 1200rpms with NO bucking what-so-ever. Hope this helps you a little.

 

[5spd GT]

Just what I was looking for from Paul. Two different combo's compared and the pros/cons of each. Just what I thought

A few extra horses were squeezed out from that 91 gt with race gas/more timing right?

tmoss - Thanks for the link - yeah doesn't appear to streety...but I know it can be close to done in more of a "racing trim".

I would like to see a real street car with 400rwhp on a 306. Accessories (atleast a couple to qualify IMO like powersteering atleast.) Anybody? Example? Link?

 

[94GTLaserRC]

Wow, this thread got big in a hurry!

Anyway, let me tell you about my dad's car. Its a '91GT that is comprised of what I would call pretty common parts. Here's the breakdown of his setup...

Holley Systemax II Kit Ported by FTI and heads milled by FTI
Stock shortblock with standard bore SRP pistons
76mm C&L MAF
70mm Edelbrock T-body
30lb FMS injectors/255lph Walbro fuel pump
FTI custom cam
1.6 FMS Stud Mount Roller Rockers
Kirban adjustable fuel pressure regulator
MSD IGNITION
FMS shorty unequal length Ceramic coated headers
Bassani offroad X pipe
Borla mufflers with turn downs
ASP aluminum underdrive pulleys
Pro Motion kustom clutch
4.30 GEARS
Comp Engineering subframe connectors
Metco lower control arms, Rhode's race UCA
S&W 8 Point Roll Bar Self Installed
TKO tranny with McCloud SFI Bellhousing
Steeda Tr-Ax shifter
Auburn Drive Shaft Safety Loop
FMS 31 spline posi
Strange S/S 31 spline axles with C clip eliminators
Bogart D10 drag wheels
MT ET street tires

You call that "pretty common parts"

RC

 

[nmcgrawj]

Just what I was looking for from Paul. Two different combo's compared and the pros/cons of each. Just what I thought

A few extra horses were squeezed out from that 91 gt with race gas/more timing right?

tmoss - Thanks for the link - yeah doesn't appear to streety...but I know it can be close to done in more of a "racing trim".

I would like to see a real street car with 400rwhp on a 306. Accessories (atleast a couple to qualify IMO like powersteering atleast.) Anybody? Example? Link?

Dude give it up. Its clear you will never be satisfied. "real street car" is different for everyone. Cant you see that? Its over....drop it. Its been said it can and HAS been done. Ed C. proved that. Let it go.

 

[Killercanary]

Just what I was looking for from Paul. Two different combo's compared and the pros/cons of each. Just what I thought

A few extra horses were squeezed out from that 91 gt with race gas/more timing right?

Well, just for your information the car made 344rwhp on 92 octane gas in its street tune. We have an SCT chip in the car that has multiple settings... one is for race gas, the other for pump gas, and then a "bad gas" tune that has a lot of timing pulled out of it just to be on the safe side. I had typed more when I wrote the above but the post got to be too long so I deleted it. But in a nutshell what I typed was that when he first put this combo together I used to always post on here that I'd take my combo anyday of the week over my dad's even though his was faster and made more power. Mine just felt faster because it had more low and mid range response, and it USED to make more TQ. But after re-degreeing the cam (we had it installed too far retarded) and milling some off of the heads (the compression was WAY too low for what we had originally intended) its TOO close to call now. His car is a BEAST on the street and it pulls HARDER than mine. Maybe not below 2200rpm, but to me that doesn't matter anyway as I'm only below 2200 in 1st gear anyway when out driving. His car will throw the ass end completely out from under the car in 1st AND second gears ON ET STREETS!!! My "torquey" setup won't even do that and my dad has a TON more suspension work done than I do. It took a LOT of work though to get this car where it is today and its been a work in progress since '00, but as has been said time and time again its all in the details and the combination. No one can expect to just go out, throw on similarly sized parts, and have the same results. We've worked VERY hard in getting this car to perform the way it does. The car has some parts on it that take away from its streetability such as an 8pt roll bar, skinnies, anti-roll bar, etc, but if we were to change those this car ABSOLUTELY could be driven pretty much daily on the street and it would put a smile on your face EVERY day doing it as well.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Well, just for your information the car made 344rwhp on 92 octane gas in its street tune. We have an SCT chip in the car that has multiple settings... one is for race gas, the other for pump gas, and then a "bad gas" tune that has a lot of timing pulled out of it just to be on the safe side. I had typed more when I wrote the above but the post got to be too long so I deleted it. But in a nutshell what I typed was that when he first put this combo together I used to always post on here that I'd take my combo anyday of the week over my dad's even though his was faster and made more power. Mine just felt faster because it had more low and mid range response, and it USED to make more TQ. But after re-degreeing the cam (we had it installed too far retarded) and milling some off of the heads (the compression was WAY too low for what we had originally intended) its TOO close to call now. His car is a BEAST on the street and it pulls HARDER than mine. Maybe not below 2200rpm, but to me that doesn't matter anyway as I'm only below 2200 in 1st gear anyway when out driving. His car will throw the ass end completely out from under the car in 1st AND second gears ON ET STREETS!!! My "torquey" setup won't even do that and my dad has a TON more suspension work done than I do. It took a LOT of work though to get this car where it is today and its been a work in progress since '00, but as has been said time and time again its all in the details and the combination. No one can expect to just go out, throw on similarly sized parts, and have the same results. We've worked VERY hard in getting this car to perform the way it does. The car has some parts on it that take away from its streetability such as an 8pt roll bar, skinnies, anti-roll bar, etc, but if we were to change those this car ABSOLUTELY could be driven pretty much daily on the street and it would put a smile on your face EVERY day doing it as well.

Ok Paul that explains it. I was reading your first post and thought, "he used to like his car on the street more...but now it seems like he likes his dad's more ".

Sounds like a pretty sweet car.

 

[Killercanary]

You call that "pretty common parts"

RC

Pretty much. Look at the list again...

-Holley Systemax II Kit Ported by FTI and heads milled by FTI HCI is COMMON, porting and head milling is pretty common as well
-Stock shortblock with standard bore SRP pistons COMMON
-76mm C&L MAF COMMON
-70mm Edelbrock T-body COMMON
-30lb FMS injectors/255lph Walbro fuel pump COMMON
-FTI custom cam NOT THAT UNCOMMON ANYMORE
-1.6 FMS Stud Mount Roller Rockers COMMON
-Kirban adjustable fuel pressure regulator COMMON
-MSD IGNITION COMMON
-FMS shorty unequal length Ceramic coated headers COMMON
-Bassani offroad X pipe COMMON
-Borla mufflers with turn downs COMMON
-ASP aluminum underdrive pulleys COMMON
-Pro Motion kustom clutch not common, but nothing "racey" either, its -more streetable than the common spec stuff
-4.30 GEARS a little steeper than most
-Comp Engineering subframe connectors COMMON
-Metco lower control arms, Rhode's race UCA COMMON
S&W 8 Point Roll Bar Self Installed NOT COMMON on a street car
TKO tranny with McCloud SFI Bellhousing fairly COMMON
Steeda Tr-Ax shifter COMMON
Auburn Drive Shaft Safety Loop COMMON
FMS 31 spline posi COMMON
Strange S/S 31 spline axles with C clip eliminators axles are COMMON, eliminators may not be
Bogart D10 drag wheels maybe not bogarts, but drag wheels are COMMON
MT ET street tires COMMON


The valvetrain is stock except for the keepers and valve springs which have been replaced to match the cam, so there is no "special" valves or titanium parts in there. The gears are a little on the steep side but the MAF, TB, and exhaust are all very normal and there is definitely power to be released with replacing them with larger parts, especially the MAF and the exhaust. My dad is in the process of replacing the MAF right now with a professional mass air systems 80mm unit and getting rid of that damn C&L.

 

[Killercanary]

Ok Paul that explains it. I was reading your first post and thought, "he used to like his car on the street more...but now it seems like he likes his dad's more ".

Sounds like a pretty sweet car.

You are absolutely right, I used to LOVE my car over my dad's on the street. His just felt weak compared to mine. BUT after the changes we made it truely is like a different car. It does still buck down low which mine absolutely does NOT do which I don't like, but that is to be expected with a hotter cam than I have. I think if he were to add a few more cubes to it, like say a 347, the extra displacement will tame that cam down into being completely as streetable as mine... and a HELL of a lot faster. That's the one nice thing his combo has over mine, 90% of his parts are up to snuff to support a 347 where mine are not. BUT I built my setup to be a strong torquey 302 and I never ever thought I'd be in a situation where I'd even concider going larger, so it was the right decision for me. Since milling my dad's heads and re-degreeing he cam we have gain almost 35rwtq! If I see my dad this weekend I will get a pic of his dyno sheet. Ed helped us a lot with my dad's car (and mine) over the years, but I think the results truely speak for themselves.

Here's a pic of my dad's car for those that haven't seen it. It was also featured in 5.0 mustang and super fords magazine in June '05.

 

[5spd GT]

Dude give it up. Its clear you will never be satisfied. "real street car" is different for everyone. Cant you see that? Its over....drop it. Its been said it can and HAS been done. Ed C. proved that. Let it go.

Where...I just seen where he said it can/has been done. I just want a link/example. What is the problem with that?

It isn't that I'm not satisfied...I just like to post different variables so the potential buyer knows what he is getting into and isn't dissapointed in any route he decides to take. Is that to harsh?

 

[tmoss]

NICE - clean car. I likey

 

[nmcgrawj]

Where...I just seen where he said it can/has been done. I just want a link/example. What is the problem with that?

It isn't that I'm not satisfied...I just like to post different variables so the potential buyer knows what he is getting into and isn't dissapointed in any route he decides to take. Is that to harsh?

Not EVERYONE posts their crap on the internet. He just said it came out of his shop didnt he? So go to his shop and sit around...im sure you will see everything you want.

Nothing wrong with posting variables...but you are a little extreme. This whole "debate" should have ended with Ed C.'s comments. The point was proven. It IS possible. Maybe not by your standards...but by mine or someone elses it IS. So drop it.

 

[mytight95]

Wow, this thread got big in a hurry!

Anyway, let me tell you about my dad's car. Its a '91GT that is comprised of what I would call pretty common parts. Here's the breakdown of his setup...

Holley Systemax II Kit Ported by FTI and heads milled by FTI
Stock shortblock with standard bore SRP pistons
76mm C&L MAF
70mm Edelbrock T-body
30lb FMS injectors/255lph Walbro fuel pump
FTI custom cam
1.6 FMS Stud Mount Roller Rockers
Kirban adjustable fuel pressure regulator
MSD IGNITION
FMS shorty unequal length Ceramic coated headers
Bassani offroad X pipe
Borla mufflers with turn downs
ASP aluminum underdrive pulleys
Pro Motion kustom clutch
4.30 GEARS
Comp Engineering subframe connectors
Metco lower control arms, Rhode's race UCA
S&W 8 Point Roll Bar Self Installed
TKO tranny with McCloud SFI Bellhousing
Steeda Tr-Ax shifter
Auburn Drive Shaft Safety Loop
FMS 31 spline posi
Strange S/S 31 spline axles with C clip eliminators
Bogart D10 drag wheels
MT ET street tires


In this form he has recently laid down 347rwhp/338rwtq, I'm 99% sure that the peak occured at no higher than 6000rpms. This thing is a BLAST to drive on the street and at the track. Its a tiny bit choppy below say 1900-2000rpms but with the 4.30's that really isn't an issue. This car still has all the accessories it came with from the factory except for the AC which was pulled when the motor was removed. I wouldn't say its as streetable as mine, buts its also a HELL of a lot faster and makes a TON more power than me as well.

As for my car, I was the first on this board to run the AFR/FTI/Edelbrock setup from Ed. My goal was a combo that I could drive absolutely everyday because at the time it was my ONLY means of transportation. I drove it everyday for work and play as well as making the drive every week over 100miles to see my wife (then fiance) and I hit friday afternoon rush hour traffic every time too. I told Ed that I would like the car to run low 13's at around 105mph trap speeds, which back in '00 when I was building this combo was STOUT for a HCI 94-95 COUPE. As you can see the combo has delivered on that and then some. I still manage 20mpg on the highway which is a pretty increadible accomplishment IMO due to the 4.10 gears, the big 315 series tires out back, and the weight of the car. My car didn't run like it does now right out of the box, it was the attention to details as Ed put it that make the difference in why I run the way I do, and this hold true for all those that go fast NA. From what the original poster has stated so far in this thread, he sounds like he is looking for something similar to what I too was looking for. My combo makes 304rwhp/331rwtq. I shift it at 6000rpms, but I can lug it around at 1200rpms with NO bucking what-so-ever. Hope this helps you a little.

Yeah paul...... you hit the nail on the head, i don't want bucking, i can live with around 1500 or so... instead of perfect at 1200 lol.........

i would hope to make the power you did, under very similar conditions, just with the bigger bottom end and maybe it will make the power i want...... Only real difference i would want between mine and yours would be, I will be finished with this car pretty much totally by the time the engine is done..... max a year.... i will have suspension, rear, everything will have been gone through........ SO that being said, i don't want to have to mess with it any more after the motor goes in......... just enjoy it, as you have obviously done yours since it has been together.........



GTJAKE, seems to have something with the performer lower being ported, and the 165's, This is the route i will be going, it should make tons of torque, just what my pig of a street car, with my 280 pound but in it will need.........



Jason

 

[mytight95]

I really don't see the need for the DRAMA..... guys?


I wasn't starting a war or debate, merely a mock up parts list on what to research if you want to get down to it. I do greatly appreciate all the imput, but i really don't see the point to argue over "point of view" we all know you build a car to whatever you want pretty much nowadays, given the parts you use.

I was pretty much asking what i needed to look into to do XXX hp and XXX tq with a semi budget build.............


any numbers anyone else want to add, such as flow numbers, dyno numbers for combos etc, please feel free.

As i stated though, please no more arguments, this thread is being helpful, so please lets just use it for info instead of a FACT&OPINION debate......



thanks for all the help, numbers, combo info, and dynos etc........


Paul, i will pm you tomm, and ask some specific questions about your car and your fathers if i may, and if it wouldn't be too much of a bother.....


GTJAKE, i will do the same with you, again with you permission.

TMOSS...... if i send you my intake when i get to this point, do you have the abillity to flow it.... ETC. and if you want the work when the time comes you WILL be porting it, based on the work of yours i have seen in the past on the other intake..........


jason

 

[Killercanary]

No problem Jason, instead of PM'ing me send me an email at [email protected]

-Paul