351W f4te engine block - what would you pay?

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by johnny_munyak, Sep 2, 2009.


  1. johnny_munyak

    johnny_munyak Member

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    I have a chance to pick up a 95' Ford F150 extended cab. It has the 351W (5.8) and is the desireable f4te roller block. It has never been cracked open and has 225,000 miles. The truck runs pretty decent except for a lifter tick. Owner says it uses about 1 quart to an oil change (3500 miles).

    My intentions were to use this truck as an engine doaner in the future. I keep hearing that these roller blocks are hard to come by and getting more expensive by the minute. The guy wants $900 for the whole truck. Interior is mint. Body is rusty.

    I was thinking about putting this motor into my 95' Mustang GT when the current engine gets tired. I just did a bunch of work to the car. (Thumper GT 40's, E303, Tmoss GT40/explorer intake, full exhaust with shorties and X pipes, chip, 24lber, 65mm TB, Stock 70mm MAF) Engine only has 85,000 miles on it.

    I was waying the options of building up the 351 but then starting thinking about the additional cost to put this 351 into the car. I will need a differnt hood, intake, headers. However, I could have a cool 393 or 408 stroker!!

    Should I buy this beaster truck and let it sit. I guess it is not a huge investment?

    Any help is appreciated?
    #1
  2. Adam95GT

    Adam95GT New Member

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    na... ive seen the blocks go for around $400....

    i mean... buy the truck... pull the engine... sell the truck to the jy for $200...:shrug:
    #2
  3. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    Personally, i wouldnt spend that much on a roller 351 that still will need machining work. For $700 and patience, i would put my bet on finding the 69-74 blocks which are known to be the strongest. (some guys say the roller 351s are not that much tougher than 302s)


    I'd pass.
    #3
  4. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    oh and whoever told you they are hard to come by....they lied. The roller blocks are a dime a dozen. The 69-74 blocks are the ones that are hard to get a hold of.


    Check for yourself..... Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

    I have plenty in my area.
    #4
  5. xr8d302

    xr8d302 I bought a 27" monitor to compensate for my lack o

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    I have a 70 block in my car, and two F4te's in my shed. They are quite easy to find, I wouldn't waste my time on a 900 dollar truck that you're going to throw away after the engine's out. That's alot of work when you can just find an older block and buy it outright.

    That said, I need to get on with selling my two F4te's.
    #5
  6. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    I'd buy it. There are going to be a lot of little parts like the cam retainer and crap like that you can reuse on the rebuild. When the price of steel goes up, you can get around $600 for the truck in steel alone. I had a friend last year turn in an F150 for $826 in steel when the price spiked.

    Kurt
    #6
  7. johnny_munyak

    johnny_munyak Member

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    Well....after a few phone calls and such to the wreckers around here....5.8 L 351w are not easy to find. Cores are even hard. Seems like guys have caught on to the fact that they are rollers blocks.

    I just may buy the truck. The interior is mint and the same color as our 94' F250 extended cab 4x4 diesel, so I can swap seats and stuff into it. I guess I'll just bag the truck around until I need the motor.

    I guess you guys are lucky to have them abundant around you. Around here, one wrecker told me he sold 3 in one day. Guys are even hanging on to the cores!
    #7
  8. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Be careful on spreading that mis-information. Whoever told you that lied. I've seen the difference in person and at the track and spoke with engine builders about it. They are stronger. No doubt.

    "I guess you guys are lucky to have them abundant around you. Around here, one wrecker told me he sold 3 in one day. Guys are even hanging on to the cores!"

    Exactly.. There is a reason. They are good strong blocks man.
    #8
  9. BlackVert

    BlackVert Mustang Master

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    i'd take it. a roller 351 block will also save you about $300 over a non-roller block because the link bar lifters you need for a hydraulic roller cam run in the $500 range.

    while they may not be quite as strong as the 68-73 blocks, there i sno question that they are much stronger than a 302 block, and the fact that they are HR ready is a big plus
    #9
  10. kck6894

    kck6894 Advanced Member

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    Just a curious question but what kind of HP will a new HR 351W block hold up to?
    #10
  11. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    Where do you live?

    hahahaha you sir, should be very careful :lol:

    Who built your engine? Oh yea....that guy Rick who knows his **** right?

    So....are u gonna zip it or call rick a liar? :nono:

    Taken from....

    http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/5922069-post6.html
    http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/5922056-post5.html

    So yea....what were u saying? :shrug:

    :D

    Stronger than a 302? yes....much stronger? I dunno if we can go there....where is our proof to say Rick is wrong?


    I just have a problem paying that much for a block that still needs 1,000 in machine work. Im not saying i wouldnt take a roller...i would. It is a bonus to not have to buy $500 roller lifters to run a roller cam. I just think u need to have a little patience...better deals are out there.

    See above....dont bet the bank if you are gonna push it to the limit. Play it safe or get an older block, or a dart. :nice:
    #11
  12. johnny_munyak

    johnny_munyak Member

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    I am in central Canada. A canada wide search for these engines does yield a dozen choices or so, however, these places are asking anywhere from $300 for a rattling noisy, complete engine, to $1400 dollar range for a good runner with low miles......but keep in mind this is just for the engine. I'm buying a running truck that is currently driving everyday for $900. Motor, trans, diff, alloy wheels, etc, etc.

    As for the motor not being strong, with good fasteners and a conservative street build (not full on racing applications of 7000 RPM) I can't see why this engine would not handle 450HP~500HP and 5500-6000 RPM bursts and live a long happy life if built properly using quality parts. The idea here was cheap, conservative, simple HP. No blowers, nitrous, turbos, etc.......just plain ole' cam, heads and intake. This doesn't sound like something that shouldn't be attainable and sustainable with a good stock bottom end, some good breathing heads, cam, intake and a tune? or am I way off base here. :shrug:

    This was going to be the purpose for this engine/truck.
    #12
  13. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    ahhh canada eh? Stuff is probably a bit different. How from aaron are u? I know he has 2 roller blocks for sale.


    In terms of your comparison of "junk" vs. good running....you are going to completely rebuild the engine right? So, a stock bore is a stock bore. The only thing u are going to reuse is the block....so every block, whether the engine was crap or still running great is the same. Thats why i said i would not spend that much on a regular block....i could see if it was already machined...or a "valuable" old block. But thats a lot of machine work money there.

    To get to 450-500(at the rear wheels or flywheel?)...you're gonna need more than 351 cubes. Otherwise i dont see it being real street friendly. Which kinda goes with what i said earlier with the current engine condition doesnt matter if they are all factory/non opened engines.



    I would agree with getting one in good condition if u were gonna keep it as is, swap the head gaskets, new cam, and turbo it...but u arent. Its a total rebuild...so it doesnt matter.
    #13
  14. johnny_munyak

    johnny_munyak Member

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    Well actually I was considering possibly a 393 stroker with a nice, streetable cam and nice flowing heads and intake. So you are saying that along with all the machine shop costs, building an engine like this is not feasible? The block is not worthy?
    #14
  15. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    No no no i didnt say its not worthy at all. Im just saying, if u are putting a stroker in it...that means you're getting atleast a new crank and pistons. Which means boring. And the only trustworthy stock rods are the football rods (which are from the early blocks, not roller blocks)....so the only thing u are using from the roller block is the block itself. And after any block comes back from the machine shop....its as good as knew. So...mileage dont mean much to me. Unless the cylinder walls are horribly scratched, the blocks will come out the same. So why spend "extra" money on a block u are machining to be new anyway?


    Streetable is where u are gonna get caught up at....ask pokageek and the other big stroker boys how they feel. How much power at the wheels do u want?


    And i just wanted to be clear and restate what Rick said. Thats why i said what i said about roller blocks vs the older blocks. if u are only going just above a 302 splitting level....then fine. Just realize that u "may" not get to where people in this thread think u can go power wise if u get bored with your setup.
    #15
  16. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    John, sorry for the distraction. Here's some real information that you can use. You will see you have nothing to be concerned about. :)

    Now for the facts below.
    -------------
    Note:
    This FAQ was written for converting a T-5 5.0 efi Mustang to a T-5 351w efi Mustang. The conversion will be slightly different if starting with a 2.3l or carbureted Mustang OR converting to a carbureted 351w. Converting transmissions is beyond the scope of this document.

    Background Info-
    The major disadvantage of the 302 is its lack of strength at high power levels. Most will agree that at ~500hp the factory 302 block will try to split in half. For many the solution to this is an aftermarket 302 block.
    Another alternative is to swap in a 351w block. There are 2 basic production blocks available; the 69-70 blocks had a deck height of 9.480â€, and the 71 up blocks had a deck height of 9.503.†This is compared to the 302 deck height of 8.200â€. The 351w is supported by the aftermarket nearly as well as the 302, but can handle much more power than the 302. Some common safe power numbers given for the 351w are usually in the 600-700hp range.

    351w Casting Numbers
    The casting numbers are on the passenger side near the starter location. You will have to turn the block upside down to see them.

    The year will be designated by the first 2 digits of the casting number.
    The first digit is the decade and will be a letter. C=1960's, D=1970's, E=1980's, and so on. The second digit will be a number and specifies the year of the decade. Some examples follow:
    D1=1971
    E9=1989
    F4=1994



    Getting Into the Nitty-Gritty

    The 351w Engine Block -
    69-70 - High Nickel content and thicker main webs (These are the only Production Ford 9.480" Deck Height 351w blocks)
    71-74 - Reduced Nickel content thinner main webs (71-up had 9.503" Deck Height)
    75-91 - Reduced main web thickness
    92-On - Lifter Bores were lengthened to accept roller lifters

    There were some 351w Mexican blocks as well. These are desirable due to their higher nickel contents. A Mexican block can be identified by the useless looking knobs cast into the block on either side of the timing cover. Mexican blocks were supposedly used on some US vehicles, but they are a very rare find.

    Camshaft-
    The specs of the cam will depend mostly on what your goals are for the motor. Cam spec selection is way beyond the scope of this FAQ. What you want to watch out for is selecting the correct base circle for the lifter combination and using the stock 302 HO firing order (since you are most likely reusing the stock 302 computer).

    69-91 351w blocks -
    Option 1) Standard Base Circle Cam / Aftermarket Linked Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
    Option 2) Small Base Circle Cam / 302 HO Roller Lifters

    92 & Later 351w blocks -
    The Standard Base Circle Cam can be used with 302 HO Roller Lifters.
    A Small Base Circle Cam is not needed in these blocks.
    (The 92 and later "roller" blocks will have a F4TE casted into the block near the starter)

    If using solid lifters (either flat tappet or roller) then a standard base circle cam can be used on any year 351w block.

    If in doubt, ask the company you plan on purchasing the cam from (or better yet a reputable engine builder) what would be appropriate for your application. They will need to know what year the block is and what lifters you plan on running. Additionally it may be helpful to have your rocker ratio available, and what piston you will be using if not stock.
    NOTE: Small Base Circle Cams are known to be less than ideal, as they are weaker. Also, there are not as many cam profiles available for the Small Base Circle Cams, so your Off The Shelf Cam selection will be limited. If possible, it is recommended to avoid the Small Base Circle Cams.

    Firing Orders-
    Early 289 & 302 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
    302HO & 351w 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (this is all 83-93 Mustangs, and all 5.0 Explorers)

    Pushrods-
    Again, there are far too many options available to cover here. Check with the cam manufacturer on what length pushrod you will need. Or even better, you can use a pushrod length checker and measure them yourself.

    Roller Lifters-
    The stock 302 lifters can be swapped over to the 351w (see the cam discussion above) with a little machining and grinding. First the spider will require 2 holes to be drilled in the main valley. These holes will be drilled over the cam bearings, so great care should be taken not to damage the camshaft or bearings. Risk can be minimized by removing the camshaft, and drilling the holes before the cam bearing is installed. Some grinding may need to be done to allow the factory 302 dogbones to sit flush on the 351w block as well. A dremel is adequate to get the job done. Be patient and work slow; it is easier to remove material than put it back. Of course it would be best to do this work before having the block cleaned and prepped for assembly. Ford Hydraulic Roller lifter (for both the 302 and 351w) part number is M-6500-302.
    If all of this does not sound appealing to you then maybe some of the aftermarket roller lifters will be a better option. These tend to be fairly expensive however. Look for lifter pairs that have a link bar, connecting each pair of lifters.

    Rocker Arms-
    This will depend on the heads you select. All of the same rules that apply to selecting rockers for a 302 still apply to the 351w. Options to consider are Pedestal vs. Stud Mount, Roller vs. Non-Roller, and Brand.

    Engine Mounts-
    Stock 5.0 mounts will bolt up to the 351w. Aftermarket alternatives include solid mounts and polyurethane mounts. Convertible Engine mounts are supposedly reinforced & shorter. Another alternative is lowering engine mounts from either Year One or HP Motorsports (HPM). These are solid and lower the motor ~¾â€. Lowering engine mounts are useful for gaining hood clearance, but will also reduce clearance between the oil pan and stock k-member. This presents clearance issues with some aftermarket pans and stock k-members, but should be ok for the FRPP pan. The use of an aftermarket tubular k-member may help improve clearance with aftermarket oil pans. Moroso is another potential source for solid motor mounts.
    Un-Confirmed –
    From 87-90 the convertible Mustang had the “captured†mount design, while the Hardtops had the standard design. The captured style mounts are said to be ½†to 1†lower, and to be stronger.
    In 90 and later Mustangs, ALL were equipped with the captured design.
    Aftermarket Prothane mounts are said to mimic the design of the early Hardtops. While the Energy mounts are said to mimic the convertible “captured†mounts.

    Heads-
    302 heads are basically the same as the 351w heads with the exception of the head bolt diameter. 302 heads have a 7/16†head bolt hole and the 351w has a ½†head bolt. Opening the holes can be done by hand, if done with care. It would be best to send this work to a machine shop however.

    Exhaust Headers-
    Stock 302 headers will bolt up to the head of a 351w (since the heads are basically the same), but will not mate up to the factory 302 mid-pipe due to the extra width of the 351w. There are many aftermarket suppliers of 351w Fox Body headers including MAC, FRPP, Kooks, Hooker, and Hedman. The Ford shorty headers are p/n M-9430-A58.

    Intake Manifold-
    Since the lifter valley of the taller 351w is wider than the 302, a new lower intake is required. Aftermarket suppliers of 351w intakes are numerous. Most of these companies offer a 351w lower intake that will bolt up to their 302
    #16
  17. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    Easy fellas. Having differing opinions and posting your opposing views is fine, but lets be respectful about it. Leave the attitude and the dick measuring at the door. :nono:
    #17
  18. BlownFiveLiter

    BlownFiveLiter have car, will race....wait, it doesn't run

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    Thanks Brian, you beat me to it. It's a good debate and has the potential to get some very good information out there, so I'd hate to lock it down.
    #18
  19. BlackVert

    BlackVert Mustang Master

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    the term "much" is a subjective term, and in this context, it clearly means different things to different people. i didn't realize you would get wrapped around the axel about it, so let's stay away from that word and stick to something that is measurable ...

    the general concensus is that 500 horses is around the limit of a stock 302 block. agree/disagree?

    so ... is there a concensus about the approximate limit of a stock later model 351 block? i'm thinking it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 horses or so. agree/disagree?

    if 700 is a reasonable estimate, then it is about 40% stronger than a 302 block.
    #19
  20. johnny_munyak

    johnny_munyak Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but a 95 roller block should already have roller lifters in it, not? There shouldn't be any need for any "mcgyvering"?
    #20

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