5.4 dohc in Aussie Ford Falcon

[Omegalock]

Would they pay 40k? No. Would they pay 32-33k? Hell yeah they would. Look at the 300C it's selling like crazy and I'm betting the Magnum and Charger will as well. While if a Falcon-esque car did get made by Ford it would cut into the sells a bit( a tiny bit IMO) but I think it would also attract more people who may need a more functional rear seating area. And I don't think the failure of the Marauder or the apparent pending failing of the GTO definatley spells Ford shouldn't make a car like the Falcon for over here but they should do it right. I'll break down how I see both GM and Ford failed with the Merc and the GTO.
GTO-Pros Excellent power. Good options. Nice interior.
Cons: Styling most people don't go gah gah over a big selling point to consider. Expensive. Doesn't really evoke the thoughts of it's name sake.

Marauder-Pros: Good styling. Evoked the feelings of the car's name. Good options yet again. A ton of room.
Cons: Underpowered. Too much money for the amount of power delivered.

Now take all those failures and look at the 300C and the Magnum. They both have all the Pros of the other two cars and not nearly as many of the cons.
Chrysler bitch slapped both Ford and GM with those cars. While GM was meandering around taking their sweet time putting out RWD platforms and while Ford has thier finger up their nose scratching their brains in regards to RWD platforms DCx waltzed in. Dropped two atom bombs on everybody and is getting it's product out to all walks of life. I mean rappers want 300cs now and every two bit wanna be will want them as well. For those who aren't jacked into the world of the extravagance of hip-hop if the car is not expensive it's not worth having. These guys ride around in Escalades just for ****s and giggles. They are buying up exotic sportscars like they are Gremlins. And Benzs and Bentleys just so they can have something to drive around with every now and again. The fact these guys looked at a 32 thousand dollar car and are clammoring for the things says a lot about it's looks and appeal. Now fast forward a few months and 300Cs are in every other rap video, and in every drive way on Cribs. Now imagine you are an impressionable 20-28 year old who wants to wear the same clothes as their idol drive the same car drink the same alcohol. Up until now you couldn't even sniff the exotics and MBs they are driving. You couldn't even afford the more pedestrian 50k Escalades and all the crap that goes with it. But wait a second....50 cent and Snoop Dogg are in 300Cs....I wonder how much those cost. **Runs and grabs a car sales paper** 32k....hmmmm I might be able to afford that. They then notice the V6 300....23k. SOLD! /rant

Basically what I'm trying to say if Ford did the car right. Made it look good. Give it exceptional power and styling for an extremely reasonable price people would show up and buy it. DCx is getting this. They are giving their customers exceptional cars for average or below average pricing. The car buying public isn't 100% idiotic if you make something that strikes a chord with them they will eat it up. Ford IMO could very easily do this. And eventually you'll have people forgoing the conservative 4 banger FWD cars and getting back to their good old American roots of buying wonderfuly styled RWD cars and paying a premium for the same styling but with a chit load of power and options.

 

[SVTdriver]

OK maybe I am missing part of what you are saying. But you go on about the marauder having not enough power. Then talk a about the new 300. Which is $32k. But the people that can't afford it go for the lower powered V6 model. Which to me says the style not the power is more important. So can you REALLY fault the marauder for having too little power? I can't see it as a logic progression to your points. Too much money is also a little quetionable since the whole point was people who couldn't afford the high powered version buy a V6. I mean the marauder is only $2k more than the 300 $32.9 for the 300 and $35 for the marauder. I personally think it is in thise case. Nearly all about styling. I mean maybe I'm not seeing it right. But to me the marauder looks like a police car. While the 300 looks more like the gangster car. Which hip hop people go for. If you are going to judge the GTO and the marauder as having too high prices. That has to be a con of the 300. Since people could go for the cheaper grand marquis if looking for a cheap marauder style.

 

[GT5oh]

Well then technically I was right and wrong the 5.4 DOHC can be had for under 36k and since the price range is between 36-50k and thats assuming it would be a direct transfer which isnt always so if it were imported here i.e. the Holden Monaro CV8 base cost $59.9k Aus leading to a transfer of $42.2 k US and the GTO has the added cost of importation and overseas shipping, and more power to boot. All that says is in Austrailia you would be paying that for that car. But it doesn't really matter because it will most likely never be sold here and it would be better if Ford just took a similar route with a rwd/V8 car built off a all new platform or maybe a long wheelbase mustang platform to save costs.

 

[SVTdriver]

Well then technically I was right and wrong the 5.4 DOHC can be had for under 36k and since the price range is between 36-50k and thats assuming it would be a direct transfer which isnt always so if it were imported here no one would pay a price like that so the price would have to come down. All that says is in Austrailia you would be paying that for that car, but it doesnt really matter cause it will never be sold here and it would be better if Ford just took a similar route with a rwd/V8 car built off a all new platform or maybe a long wheelbase mustang platform to save costs.

I'm sorry you think I am an A$$. But I prefer to deal in straight facts as much as possible. Rather than blow sunshine up your backside. I really do like the australian falcon. I get an email from them every month. Telling me about what's going on with the car and it's race team. And I watch the races when they are on speed channel. I'd love to have one here. But I also know what it costs. I also know that when the Cobra was brought over to Australia the internet was listing the price at $100k. And sure it would be cool to have a RWD sedan from Ford. But the reality is unless it is styled right and makes a GREAT impression. It will not really sell. Maybe it's just me. But I see a retro feel to the 300. It just feels old school real gangster (Kinda old lincoln town car).

 

[GT5oh]

No I meant the way you put it not the fact that I was wrong, with the "then we go here then we do this" line. Sorry I was just perturbed at the way it sounded to me and got rubbed the wrong way maybe I just took it wrong and acted a bit rashly. But I too am a big fan of the Aussie Falcons and their other models such as the Utes and Fairlane/LTD's since I discovered them about 6 or 7 years ago. I hadn't really checked the prices in a few years so I guess I just rembered their standard models being a bit cheaper than that. But anyways fogetaboutit.

You do make a good point that image and a good launch are needed for any product to do well and with the right marketing behind it something similar to the Falcon I believe could do very well a kind of Ford 3-series or maybe something a bit bigger to compete with the LX and Zeta cars. I guess I just don't see the desirability of the new 500 compared to the new LX cars from Chrysler or the upcomming GM Zeta cars. I guess I'm just not in the 500's target demographic, maybe if Chrysler and GM were sticking with their front drive fullsize cars the 500 would be a good alternative in my mind, but they are not.

 

[SVTdriver]

Sorry I put it that way. People tell me frequently that I need to learn to be tactful.

 

[Omegalock]

OK maybe I am missing part of what you are saying. But you go on about the marauder having not enough power. Then talk a about the new 300. Which is $32k. But the people that can't afford it go for the lower powered V6 model. Which to me says the style not the power is more important. So can you REALLY fault the marauder for having too little power? I can't see it as a logic progression to your points. Too much money is also a little quetionable since the whole point was people who couldn't afford the high powered version buy a V6. I mean the marauder is only $2k more than the 300 $32.9 for the 300 and $35 for the marauder. I personally think it is in thise case. Nearly all about styling. I mean maybe I'm not seeing it right. But to me the marauder looks like a police car. While the 300 looks more like the gangster car. Which hip hop people go for. If you are going to judge the GTO and the marauder as having too high prices. That has to be a con of the 300. Since people could go for the cheaper grand marquis if looking for a cheap marauder style.

The reason I say that is because for that segement of the population is true but they are also selling the 300Cs like hot cakes which indicates to me that power is also a major point of contention for another segment of the population. I was making my point as to how the 300 from top to bottom is what Ford should be shooting for with a RWD sedan. Something that the top of the line version which is both powerful beautiful and desireable. While at the same time delivers at least the beauty and grace that would be desireable in the lower versions for the people that can't afford to go full bore. I guess I'm saying the car does not have to be exclusively an asphault ripping monster with no appeal to anybody else. I don't think the Grand Marquis/Marauder really fits that bill due to the fact that style wise the Grand Marquis has nothing on the 300 and power wise the Marauder has nothing on the 300C all for similar money. One part of the population is concerned with style and comfort the other with power. The 300/300C delivers both of those. The Marauder/Grand Marquis only delivers slightly on both of those for a higher price. The Goat delivers only on half of that package for about the same price as a 300C. The car serves multiple markets while still having a unique top tier version that is still has a very high perceived value. Ford needs to try to duplicate that formula and pushing the aged Panther platforms out there ain't gonna cut it. Chevy realized they needed to revamp their platforms I'm starting to get worried Ford is going to get caught in a distant 3rd regarding RWD platform cars when the market just might be taking a larger shift that way.

 

[falchulk]

What I based the 40k on was the turbo 6 that the article in CandD was really on. They barely mentioned the 5.4 v8 since the v6 was so close in power. If I remember correctly, it only gets 12mpg anyway.

 

[blazinsteed]

one reason. emissions standards

 

[Route666]

We are getting screwed. In the new car and driver they have a review on the australian Ford Falcon. Base engine is a 5.4L DOHC V8 349 hp and 368 trq. Its called the "Boss 260". Why does ford not put this in any US cars?

Optional engine is a intercooled turbocharged inline 6 DOHC VCT 322hp 332 trq putting this taurus sized car to 60 in 5.9 sec.

We also have a BOSS 290 in the GT. That's 390HP.

EDIT: Oh and two turbo 6 Falcons rated at 240 and 270kW.

 

[Route666]

They do have a version of the Mustang, but I don't know what's under the hood.

We get current Cobras and make them RHD, and increase lighting for our design rules.

 

[Route666]

Actually they do not have a version of the Mustang any longer. They were given one in 2002 which was a rebadged right hand drive version of the 2001 SVT Cobra but it was overpriced there due to limited production, reingineering, and shipping costs, and failed miserably so the plug was pulled after one year. Ford Austrailia and their FPV subsidiary formally known as Ford Tickford (kind of an Austrailian SVT) have been making a lot of V8 powered high performance Falcons, Utes and Farilane/LTD's for quite awhile. In 2002 they had several high performance Falcons, the 5.0L powered XR8, turbo inline 6 powered XR6 and the Tickford TE50 and TS50, and Tickford's top Falcon was T3 5.6L (347ci) making 335 hp and 368 ft-lbs of torque! In 2003 they switched to using 5.4L DOHC engines! I don't think Ford North America even knows Ford Austrailia exists to not bring us these cars! Instead of making the new 500 a fwd/weak 3.0L v6 car built off a volvo they should have reworked the Austrailian falcons and brought some of these rwd 5.4L DOHC's here, what better to battle the Hemi powered Chrysler 300's/Dodge Magnum/Chargers's and upcoming V8/rwd Zeta cars from GM! Come on Ford!

Check these sites out for more: http://www.ford.com.au/
http://www.fpv.com.au/

I didn't know they stopped importing, but I thought that would happen. $90k for a vert stang is a bit much.

 

[GT5oh]

one reason. emissions standards

Well I highly doubt thats the one reason. Maybe a minor one and even then that would really only apply to the Inline 6 since no version of it exists here. But for the V8's these are just variants of the modular V8 engine family which obviously does meet emmisions here in many applications throughout Ford's product line. So your gonna tell me a DOHC 5.4L modular V8 engine could not be easily retuned for emmisions here, or rework the exhaust system a bit to fit any neccissary emmisions equipment, or maybe just wait till the next redesign of the Falcon which probably isnt to far off to incorporate allowances for American emmisions versions. Check out the GTO it had to be retuned for America not just because power delivery but also to meet emmisions standards and it makes more HP and torque than its Holden Monaro counterpart! So no its not emmisions. Not every Falcon has a V8, I'm sure most have the straight N/A 6, and I bet an emmisions legal 3.0-4.0L V6 from our market could be placed in its engine bay to easily meet emmisions if it were impossible to tune the straight 6 for US emmisions. There are many reasons why Ford won't bring these cars here but I doubt emmsions is very high if even on that list.

 

[Route666]

It is an iron block 5.4 though. I see threads about putting the 5.4 in the stang and people say Ford won't do it because of the emmisions quota of the fleet thing. If that is true I highly doubt they would bring another car in that is 1900kg + options with a 5.4L DOHC motor.

I believe the 5.4 in standard V8 form is rated at 11-14 km/L which is 25.9 - 33 mpg. More powerful XR8 and GT get slightly worse. If they only offered an aluminium block as an option, get some weight off, and fuel mileage increase, but oh well. The 6 (turboed or not) is slightly better again than the standard V8, obviously. I think 13 - 16 km/L.

The Pontiac GTO does have slightly more power than the Monaro, but not as much as the Monaro GTO with 390hp or the GTS with 410hp.

 

[GT5oh]

I was comparing base model to base model with the GTO and Monaro to show how the Monaro was easily retuned for emmisions and without a loss of power but the opposite a gain in power I wasnt reall trying to start a fight about who is more powerful. Of course I am assuming the Monaro would not meet US emmisions in its original configuration, which I'm not sure since I'm not familar with Austrailian emmisions laws. If emmisions were a problem though then the Monaro was easily fixed for the US in GTO form. I'm not sure what you meen when your are saying it is an iron block vs aluminum I don't think that would have an effect on emmisions. When I refered to modular V8's being here I meant all of them in all forms not that exact engine, but that the engine family does exist here which means that engine could probably be easily retuned for US emmisions, maybe that is what you were reffering to. I agree with you, as far as fleet emmisions go and fuel mileage for that matter, the majority of the Falcon or if a car similar to it were built here would be six cylinder cars not V8 or turboed cars so that would not be a problem.

 

[poopstang]

That's a shame! That is a great looking car! The right engine as well. Ford is really making it hard to be a loyal customer these days. I'm sick of them taking the american market for granted. What...they don't think we like well designed cars like everyone else. They need to stop given us this cheapped-down, generic, no style, B.S. Like it was said before I believe Chrysler and GM are going to have a great advantage with their RWD cars and big motors (hemi, LS2, etc...). The new trend will be High-Performance RWD sedans and Fords got NOTHING!

 

[SVTdriver]

That's a shame! That is a great looking car! The right engine as well. Ford is really making it hard to be a loyal customer these days. I'm sick of them taking the american market for granted. What...they don't think we like well designed cars like everyone else. They need to stop given us this cheapped-down, generic, no style, B.S. Like it was said before I believe Chrysler and GM are going to have a great advantage with their RWD cars and big motors (hemi, LS2, etc...). The new trend will be High-Performance RWD sedans and Fords got NOTHING!

While it is a good looking car. The "new trend" you mention. Is not exactly a trend. Only 1 of the "High-performance RWD sedans." Are selling well enough to even warrant discussion. And 1 car does not make a trend. The GTO sales are sooo poor. That to call it part of a trend is highly innaccurate. Unless you're talking about a trend in poor sales. And as far as taking the american market for granted. I don't understand how you can say that. They have redesigned the F-150 and the mustang. Both of which are nearly exclusively american. Sure you can import a mustang or F-150 to europe. But it is not part of there normal market. The focus has been redone and seems to be getting it's developement done in europe. But that is being brought over to America. And there is the new 500 and futura. Both of which have the opportunity to get high hp engines (Not saying they will. But I would bet they have the room if they want to). Since SVT is only losing the focus. They could decide to build a high hp sedan through SVT.

 

[Route666]

I was comparing base model to base model with the GTO and Monaro to show how the Monaro was easily retuned for emmisions and without a loss of power but the opposite a gain in power I wasnt reall trying to start a fight about who is more powerful. Of course I am assuming the Monaro would not meet US emmisions in its original configuration, which I'm not sure since I'm not familar with Austrailian emmisions laws. If emmisions were a problem though then the Monaro was easily fixed for the US in GTO form. I'm not sure what you meen when your are saying it is an iron block vs aluminum I don't think that would have an effect on emmisions. When I refered to modular V8's being here I meant all of them in all forms not that exact engine, but that the engine family does exist here which means that engine could probably be easily retuned for US emmisions, maybe that is what you were reffering to. I agree with you, as far as fleet emmisions go and fuel mileage for that matter, the majority of the Falcon or if a car similar to it were built here would be six cylinder cars not V8 or turboed cars so that would not be a problem.

I understand about the basemodel comparison, was just being proud of the cars we have. Even though it is a Holden, and was built rather too quickly for my liking.

With regards to emmissions, adding another car to the fleet, especially a rather heavy, powerful one would put the fleet emmissions up. Something Ford probably isn't willing to do. As for the aluminium block, if you could knock 100kg off the weight of the car it would be more fuel efficient, slightly, but still more. Also, like aluminium heads I believe an aluminium block would cool quicker than iron, leading to healthier under bonnet conditions, better combustion conditions, etc, more power from less fuel.

I suppose the majority would be sixers, I was thinking it would be more of a novelty, so people would only buy 8s or turbos. Getting a plain-jane 6, which look boring (they don't get body kits) wouldn't have any advantage over a cheaper 6er availible already in the states. Oh and if you did have 6ers, you'd want our straight 6, for its legendary torque. With the weight of the current Falcon, you'll need it for it to be any fun.

 

[GT5oh]

I understand about the basemodel comparison, was just being proud of the cars we have. Even though it is a Holden, and was built rather too quickly for my liking.

With regards to emmissions, adding another car to the fleet, especially a rather heavy, powerful one would put the fleet emmissions up. Something Ford probably isn't willing to do. As for the aluminium block, if you could knock 100kg off the weight of the car it would be more fuel efficient, slightly, but still more. Also, like aluminium heads I believe an aluminium block would cool quicker than iron, leading to healthier under bonnet conditions, better combustion conditions, etc, more power from less fuel.

I suppose the majority would be sixers, I was thinking it would be more of a novelty, so people would only buy 8s or turbos. Getting a plain-jane 6, which look boring (they don't get body kits) wouldn't have any advantage over a cheaper 6er availible already in the states. Oh and if you did have 6ers, you'd want our straight 6, for its legendary torque. With the weight of the current Falcon, you'll need it for it to be any fun.

Okay I see, but I was simply refering to emmisions I just didnt get the link to iron block and emmsions legality. I understand the differences in aluminum verses iron engine construction you dont have to explain. I guess I just didnt see its relevance. As I stated, I doubt Ford would be to hard pressed with overall emmisions by adding low volume V8 models since a 6 cylinder would be the bread and butter of the line this would not effect overall emmisions very much. Obviously Chrysler and Dodge have no problem with overall emmsions and fuel mileage adding V8's to their model lineups, and GM will be doing the same with the upcoming Zeta cars. So if Ford's two American rivals can do it Ford most likely could as well without any problem, and the fact that almost all of their car models are and still would be 4 or 6 cylinder powered.

As for being a small volume niche car with high performance V8's only, the article the thread starter was reffering to in Car and Driver this month was directly comparing the Falcon to the high volume Taurus midsize car which is not a niche vehicle, and also compares it to the upcomming Ford 500 and Futura models which will also be high volume cars and will effectivly be replacing the Taurus next year. So I was not viewing the Falcon or a similar designed car as a small niche vehicle with only high performance V8's. As I stated earlier in this thread, just directly importing the Falcons probably wouldnt be the best idea, rather a better idea would be to design a totally new car featuring similar characteristics, as it appears GM will be doing off the Zeta platform for the next gen GTO. Like the Mustang and the Falcon I figured that with a high volume midsize sedan the majority would be sold with 6 cylinders, with versions with higher performance V8 engines sold in smaller volumes. This would also help overall emmsions and fuel economy with only a portion of the cars getting V8's.

Reffering to the inline 6, I think it is a powerful and interesting engine. I was simply stating since no version does or has ever existed here it may be hard pressed to meet current and near future US emmsions, but a quick fix would be to use a V6 already available here.

 

[Route666]

Yep I got everything you said! I suppose there isn't much stopping it going over. Except the infrastructure for doing it - the setting up of which would be a hefty project, especially when Ford Aus. may not be able to build the numbers for us and for the US, and so may need more facilities for not only conversion, but production also.

I'd still like to see it happen though!