AFR vs. Trickflow cylinder heads

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by 1991vert, Dec 26, 2004.


  1. Highbredcloud

    Highbredcloud New Member

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    Calm down...relax...start breathing...I'm not the one talking BS...the facts are right there if you are willing to take your time to actually research the topic...IT has been proven time and time again that AFR's make more power under the curve than the TW's...NOTICE how I said under the curve and not just peak HP...I do agree that the combination has a lot to do with this matter than the head alone...I have no idea why MM&FF comapre the TW's to the AFR's 185's...YOU can call and inquire about that...It's funny how I'm talking out of the box heads...and then you go ahead and keep saying about a clean up job to the TW's...well guess what buddy...to blend the bowls and polish the chambers and even port/smooth the exhaust for to a perfect 1415 Fel-Pro gasket...that right there will abe about $400.00+...in labor by a reputable head porter and not some nobody with a dremel...Like I said before...just polishing will do nothing...The fact that the TW's have a bigger valve on the intake tells me that AFR must have done something right to achieve the near same flow with a smaller valve and a smaller intake cc...Common sense here...Stick to the subject and don't get all confused...There are different heads out there that will flow better than both AFR's and TW's once slightly cleaned up...i.e...the GT-40X's...I'm talking right out of the box...AFR's will give you better results...is it worth the money? Probably put this in the same perspective as porting or slightly cleaning up the TW's heads for $400.00 more...

    YOU are full of wasted knowledge about this topic especially AFR's...AFR 165's come in 54cc, 58cc, 60cc, 61cc...not sure about the 64cc...go to the website and check it out for yourself...www.airflowresearch.com While you are there you can also see the flow number with the emmision legal AFR 165's and the non-emission legal ones...prove me right! I have nothing against TW's, they are a good head but I like the fact of a smaller head making as much HP as a bigger one...I will say this again...TW's have more meat on them if you want to port them...and do flow once ported...Still a very good head for the money...I would really like to know where you get your information from...

    -Greg :flag:
     
    #61
  2. Highbredcloud

    Highbredcloud New Member

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    How exactly is the BS Mike? a smaller head will have a higher velocity...just like with the TB's...just like with the vavles...What sort of experience do you have with AFR's? Do you have any experience with other heads besides the TW's you own? I have had personal experience with ported GT-40's, ported GT-40X, AFR 165's (not installed on the car yet) and TW's...I've seen what all those heads can do...And where exactly do the AFR's go for $400.00 more than the TW's? Last time I picked up a Summit magazine the TW's are listed at $1095 and the AFR 165 at $1325...that's a little over $200...Just because you didn't feel a loss of low end doesn't mean that I won't...I do agree with you that its not just a head...its the rest of the setup as well that influences the overall performance...It's funny that you stated "Some people are just brand loyal and thats how they go about recommending parts. Not cool."...look in the mirror and tell me what you see...

    -Greg
     
    #62
  3. Highbredcloud

    Highbredcloud New Member

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    That's what I figured...Would you by anychance know how much bigger the actual exhaust port is...? Reason for that is on the standard AFR 165's the exhaust ports are as big as the gasket and actually bigger than the Bassani 1 5/8 header I have...makes me wonder if the N20 heads require a 1 3/4 header...
     
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  4. 90mustangGT

    90mustangGT I felt sorry for girls because Founding Member

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    Good Debate, but lets cool things down a bit.

    The facts are the facts, they are both very good heads. I mean they must be great because all of you with the AFR's and TFS's are all very happy with them and are all claiming king of the mountian. I think both the AFR guys and the TFS guys need to :cheers: and relize that you both have some good heads and relize that the other side isn't always wrong.

    I am going to have to make the choice sooner more than later. If I decide on TFS's I am going to get the TW style pistons. I am leaning towards the AFR's because of what I have scene. Irrigardless of dyno results, the AFR running cars seem to run the best. There could be other reasons for that but from my experience the AFR's seem to have the pull. A buddy of mine has a 93 Hatch, AFR 185's, ported, GT40 intake, OTS cam, stock block, stock crank and rods 306 9.7:1 compression, Vortec SC trim at 11psi, C4 trans with a very mild stall. Makes 500's in hp and 560tq, runs 6.8 at 101mph in the 1/8th, full interior full weight GT, daily driver. Lifts the front wheels off the ground at a 45mph roll. Would have made more HP but ran out of fuel, putting in an aremotive fuel system.
     
    #64
  5. Rick 91GT

    Rick 91GT SN Certified Technician Site Sponsor

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    They square off the roof and taper the guides. Basically squaring off the runner like the 205 heads.

    Info straight from Ed C @ FTI
     
    #65
  6. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    :nice:
     
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  7. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

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    Of course I have actual experience with afr 165's. I helped my friend install/tune/race his afr/fti/rpm combo :) All said and tuned with a good a/f he was 1mph faster than my untuned 16:1 a/f car. On the street from a roll, we were neck and neck. From a dig drag radial to drag radial at the track it wasn't even a race. NEVER said anything bad about 165's. IF you read my post I said pick an edelbrock, afr or a TW and basically you'll be very happy. As for the $400 less comment, my brand new TW heads were $935 shipped over 3 years ago when I bought them and if memory serves me correct afr's were in the $1300 range or maybe slightly less. So we'll say $300 cheaper to be more fair :) What your doing is looking to much into the "theory" rather than REAL world experience. For chits n giggles, compare my untuned car to some tuned afr/fti cars dyno sheets to get an idea of low end torque. You'll see im basically equal or better in the sub 3000 department :)

    I'm not brand loyal, its like 5spdGT said, i'm happy with my choice and wouldnt go any other way.
     
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  8. giddyup306

    giddyup306 Founding Member

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    Stick with the 19#s and an AFPR. I had around 300 at the wheels and the OE injectors were fine.
     
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  9. Daggar

    Daggar New Member

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    I'll put what I said earlier in another way. If you're building a new (or rebuilt) motor and piston notching is not a problem then I'd go with a set of 185s. If you're just swapping heads or piston notching seems like it will be more trouble than it's worth in your particular case, then I'd go with the TFS. For me, not having to notch my pistons was the deciding factor. The 185's and the Twisted Wedge "perform" very close to one another. Close enough that it wasn't enough of a factor for me to base my final decision on. The cam and rest of the combo will make the final decision on which head is "best". The AFR heads do flow better than the TFS out of the box and seem to provide slightly better performance. Were I building a new motor and could use whatever heads I wanted then I'd go with the AFR 185 if were a choice between the two. I don't consider the 165s a contender in this group.
     
    #69
  10. Highbredcloud

    Highbredcloud New Member

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    I agree with what you say...,however, why don't you consider the AFR 165's to be a contender? The flow nearly the same as TW's...and are 5cc smaller instead of the 185's being 15cc bigger...besides isn't the 185 head the same as the 165...but with a bigger intake vavle?
     
    #70
  11. Highbredcloud

    Highbredcloud New Member

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    Mike...I base my decisions on real world experience...the theory follows the experience...For instance...to generate higher velocity with a bigger head you will need to spin the moter higher to achieve the same result as with a smaller head...Common solution to this is simply getting a numerically bigger rear end gear...in this case 5cc really doesn't make a difference but you get my point...,however, AFR's having a smaller intake valve and a 5cc smaller overall my infact pick up more power 200RPMs sooner than a TW head...That's why AFR's seem to have a better under the curve results and not just peak HP...This has to accompany with the rest of the combo as well...

    As far as you racing your friend on the street...and being neck and neck...Well I race my friend with a Summit TrickFlow Street heat kit against my GT-40X, GT-40 intake setup and we were neck and neck...in the same type of car...so does that mean that GT-40X heads are just as good as the TW's?
     
    #71
  12. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    Yeah - You can't base the power/quality of heads based on a race between two different drivers with other variables included...

    And tuning a h/c/i car is way to easy to consider that as anything...setting FP by turning a little stud and setting timing is easy...

    A dyno is a good comparison of a car with everything else being the same except the heads...but we don't have that luxury...

    No need to "downplay" TW's or AFR's...I'm happy with my decision...
     
    #72
  13. bluevenom867

    bluevenom867 I will have images of molesting stuffed animals in

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    Highbredcloud, you the only one still talking about why this head or that is better than this head or that.Yes, it true that the AFR 165cc might have more intake port velocity, but the TFS heads move more volume.And 90notch kinda put that theory of low end power advantage of the AFR's to rest when he said the TFS TW have shorter runners.The air might move slower but it doesn't have to go as far to reach the valve.I'm done now, I could go on but I don't care really, there both great heads.
     
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  14. jocko

    jocko Member

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    wait a minute,did you say pull the wheels at 45 mph roll,that i have to see on video,i don't think you can do that with 500 hp,you can do it with less from a dead stop but not rolling,bs flag raised.
     
    #74
  15. bluevenom867

    bluevenom867 I will have images of molesting stuffed animals in

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    I agree with jocko, :bs:
     
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  16. 5.0 HOtrain

    5.0 HOtrain Founding Member

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    You know, I've heard that from 4 different engine builders. :nice: I was happy with my afr/fti combo. I'm happy with my current tfs heads, but on a completely different combo. From everything I've seen, both heads are comparitable and seem to put down similiar #'s. Comes down to user preference IMHO :nice:
    Mike.
     
    #76
  17. 90mustangGT

    90mustangGT I felt sorry for girls because Founding Member

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    Do you mean this one :bs:

    I forgot his combo but I know he has drag struts up front with 4 cylinder springs, Welds with skinnies up front, DR's in back. I thin the drag struts are new, I think he put in 70/30's to replace his old ones, his car was real bouncy. I know the left one came up, it looked like the right one too, but belive what you want to belive. Getting the front wheels off the ground is no feat of power. I have test driven car's for "suspension bottoming out" and things of that nature and I have gotten the wheels off the ground about 6" on a Nissan Pathfinder with a 3.3V6 and some blown out front shocks. How? Hit the brakes hard, the bottom started to dive so I hit the gas, the pathfinder downshifted as it bottomed out, front came up and off the ground, my co-workers told me I had about 6" off the ground. Did in in a FWD caddalic, did the same thing but when the front came off the ground all hell broke loose. I would bet you money that right now, I could go out to my truck, unbolt the front shocks and lift the front wheels off the ground by doing the same.
     
    #77
  18. jocko

    jocko Member

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    weight is weight and i seen lowriders with hydraulics having a hard time getting over a foot and a half of air with them and you were talking hp,i had 90/10 and 50/50,no sway bar,skinnies and slicks with 9 psi and one wheel went up off the hole on a 12 sec stang with 1.60 foot time but you said rolling at 45 mph,im not trying to be a dic* but give me and the rest of us here a break,and yeah ill take you on your bet anytime!!!!
     
    #78
  19. 90mustangGT

    90mustangGT I felt sorry for girls because Founding Member

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    I need to make some money, do you live near GA? You don't seem to know anything about suspensions. The purpose of a shock is to controll the bounce and keep the tire on the road. A strut is just a shock which serves as a control arm as well. Without a strut/shock, or a completly blown out one, there will be nothing to controll the movement, so the spring constantly pushes and acceleration will speed up, in a skyward direction, with nothign to stop it, so it reaches the point where the travel of the suspension runs out, what, the weight of the wheels is going to keep it on the ground. I am not trying to be a dick either but I work in a shop, this is my profession, carreer (sadly) and I know this kind of thing. Of course, anyone knows anythign about physics knows "an object in motion will contiue in motion until it is stopped" so the the only thing that is stopping the travel is the strut, and it isnt' there, what's going to happen?

    -although, now that he has new drag struts in his car, he can't do that anymore.
     
    #79
  20. jocko

    jocko Member

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    ok,thanks for the suspension specialty class,i am a technician for vw and previously for audi and i know what needs to be known about suspension wich is to diagnose for noise,condition or faulty operation but i don't know alingment or specialize on suspension,back to the subject(45 MPH ROLLING WHEELIES)you should get that on tape and i'll stfu,this is not to start a ****ing match,is just hard to beleive.
     
    #80

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