Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by 1991vert, Dec 26, 2004.
i didn't mean to hijack the thread with suspension theory,i like the tfs vs afr comparison myself.
I base that opinion solely on HP and Torque results when both sets of heads are tested on similar or identical combinations, not on valve size or flow numbers. I realize that there's often a direct correlation between the flow numbers and performance but the majority of the test results I've seen show the TFS to perform much closer to the AFR 185s as opposed to the 165s. I currently run the TFS heads (the reason why is in one of my posts above). I'll concede that the AFR 185 heads would more than likely provide better performance than my TFS when both are out of the box (as per the test results I sighted above). Again, my deciding factor was piston to valve clearance. I'm also aware that with my current heads and a bit more cash, that I'm able to make them perform even better. So in my case, it was convenience and upgradability that made the TFS so attractive for me. The fact that they were a couple hundred bux cheaper didn't hurt me any either. The difference in cost paid for my roller rockers.
Hey, well at least we can disagree like men, right? Honestly, I have yet to see this better under the curve that the afr 165's supposidly have. Like I said for chits n giggles you could compare my dyno sheet (I HATE racing dyno's but just for the heck of it) to other afr/fti dyno sheet's and I garantee I make very similar (whether more or less) sub 3000rpm power. Maybe when I get my PMS i'll dyno my car for the hell of it. With a 16-18:1 a/f in the low-mid range I still had 300 ft/lbs by 3000rpm. I've made some changes/fixes since and i'll be adding a PMS. I hope have it by next week. With your typical street combo, BOTH will make practically identicle numbers. Your obviously very pro AFR. Have you decided on a combo yet? I still say use the RPM intake and a 75mm TB for your set up
Bad part on TW heads are valve springs
Just a few hours ago I busted my valve springs http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=528652
But I will replace them with better one .600 lift so i can without fear shift at 6500rpms
Not to downgrade either head, but taken from AFR website
I didnt post that to start a flame war. But.....most people who buy their heads from some of the lesser known drop shippers arent made aware of the vavle spring/roller cam issue. When I bought my 165's from Ed he made me fully aware, so I upgraded.
AFR heads need a spring up grade for cams over .550 lift to, so you can't really say it not a common problem.I wonder if the Edelbrock performer rpm heads have the same problem?
Aw, beat me to it.
By the way, Slow5.0, my TFS Track Heat heads have no problem at 6800rpm's on my hydraulic roller 357 (.030 over 351W).
I'm looking at doing a cam swap down the road and might look for +7000rpm's with the track heat springs.
LOL...I guess you're right...we can disagree like men...I guess that's what makes the Mustang modding so unique...so many different combinations but which one is the perfect one? You and me obviously have a different way of doing things...I honestly think that you center your mods more around the track...where as I rarely go to the track and center the mods more around the street...two different ways on modding the cars...
PMS will definately help you out...it's an expensive way of doing things but nevertheless it is the right way of doing things...Don't think that by any means I am criticizing what you say...I'm not...It's obvious to me that you are partial to TrickFlow...which is cool...as I am partial to FORD RACING parts...not SO much AFR...but I do give credit where credit is due...
ONCE I get things figured out I will definately get the car dynoed...AND you can bet that I will share my results with Stangnet...As of now I am keeping the Cobra with Tmoss ported lower...I have confidence in Tom's work and the research he has done from the sources he provided...BTW: I am using a 65mm TB to maintain velocity at low RPM's... ...it's a street car.
any spring on any head will require to be changed if one runs a cam with aggressive ramp rates...cam lift is only a partial problem as to why people experience valve float...
Not valve float, spring bind because of big cams with fast ramp rates.
read what 5.0 HOtrain posted directly from AFR website...whatever the case pay the extra $80.00 for betters springs and be safe...to avoid a headache and unneccessary expenses such as a dropped valve and other possible damage that may result...
Dude i'm Twisted Wedge guy
Twisted Wedge valve springs are good to 6000 or .540 lift, there is upgrade with Track Heat valve springs lift up to .600 part # TFS-2500200
"Track Heat Spring Upgrade Kit for Small Ford Twisted Wedge Heads
Our Track Heat spring upgrade kit includes everything you need to convert standard Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads to Track Heat specifications. The kit includes new valve springs with dampers (125 lbs. of seat pressure at 1.780" installed height and .600" max lift), chromemoly retainers, valve seals, valve locks, spring shims, a spring height gauge, and instructions."
There is no perfect way. I center my idea's around what I know will make good power. Our local track closed down for good which blows Now I don't really have much of a chance to race anymore unless its on the street with friends. I wish I would have known back then what I know now. I would have bought some bigger parts. I would have used a bigger cam right off the bat, bigger injectors, a bigger 75mm TB (they dont effect velocity) and a bigger intake. The TB swap cost me like $125 out of my pocket after I sold the old one. I would have saved money in the long run and had a faster car to boot. Live and learn.
I bought the PMS used for $410 shipped so its actually cheaper than a chip and as far as i'm concerned (through experience) chips suck monkey balls! I can't wait to dial that thing in. I think for now, i'm just gonna get the tune best I can and leave the car and not do any more mods. I'm going to continue to save money and maybe once it warms up do a 342/347 stroker. For the heck of it, i'll probably dyno the car after the PMS.
Thats what valve float is
I've had no issues with springs that came on my "R" heads. Hydro roller, .576 lift, and 6800rpms on the dyno w/no float. I dont think it has seen higher than 6400 in the car though.
You need to always match the spring to the cam and valetrain, no matter what head you use. I will admit I haven't used a stock AFR valve spring yet, I have a few sets laying around..lol
I would upgrade to a different spring, and the springs I get from FTI are awesome, work very well with the new technology lobes.
Now AFR chamber efficency...did you know the 58cc chamber is a better design over the 61cc?? It's more efficent as well.........
Mike, good deal on that PMS, it is an awesome piece and worth every cent, you'll be surprised how much power you can tune in and find in your combo. We have found over 100hp on blower cars
its true the roated valve of the tf head doesnt line up with the stock valve reliefs.