All supercharged applications...help me out...

Discussion in '1996 - 2004 SN95 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by Unreal281, Feb 14, 2007.


  1. Unreal281

    Unreal281 New Member

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    Sick...but i still gotta ask the general question...


    How are you T-trim guys feelin right now??? Any one wish they had done it differently???


    :SNSign:
    #61
  2. Unreal281

    Unreal281 New Member

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    Also...what is about the MAX power the T-trim and NOVI2000 can reach at FULL boost on a well built shortblock???


    Thanx
    #62
  3. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    No and from highway speeds.....generally, yes

    A Kenne Bell will give you great bottom end jam, but considering you're a person who likes to make highway runs, a Positive Displacement blower like a Twins Screw or an Eaton is not what you want. They're designed to come on hard down low and taper off up high. And yes, regardless of what some owners say, they do taper. Maybe the twin screw doesn’t fall off as quickly as a Roots blower, but as blower RPM rises, so does the heat. They may make less heat up top than an Eaton, but still no where near as as efficient at that level as a Centrifugal. So its horsepower and torque making abilities will diminish up top, with blower RPM just the same. What you're going to want to go with is a lager Centrifugal blower like a Novi 2000, T-Trim or D-ISC. This is assuming you're on a strict budget. It won’t necessarily make that much more horsepower or torque per say as a smaller Centrifugal blower, when run in the same boost range, but they will leave you more room to grow later on when more money becomes available. A turbo system would be better, buy as it is, you're not going to be able to do much with a $5,000-$6,000 budget. No matter which blower you go with, you're not going to able to afford to both forge your bottom end and spring for a forced inductions system at the same time. Any you're not going to come anywhere close to hanging it to a 500hp Supra, or the like.

    A stock what though.......I see Roush gauges in that video. If it's a true Roush car, he's already got a freer flowing cat back and intake set up that the standard GT. Most GT's aren't seeing anywhere close to 445rwhp with just a 1.7L pumping 9psi pumping through it. Not trying to take anything away from the car as it's obviously got a lot of jam and it does looks cool doing what its doing in the video, but considering he's dropping the hammer between 3,500-3,800rpm (right in the meat of his power band), it's not all that impressive for a blower car. Hell, I could scratch them momentarily in my old full weight, N/A bolt on fox body by jabbing the pedal at the top of 3rd.....and all I had in it was 3.55's :shrug:

    .....and forgive me. I don't speak "hick", what was it the two of you were saying? I’d better never hear any one of you clowns make fun of a Canadian accent again after this video. :D

    The 2.2L on the GT and 2.2L on the Cobra were the same 422 MX compressor but with different nose drive, inlet and intake manifolds. The compressors themselves are not interchangeable between the kits and the supporting components required for each are completely different. Long story short, no it won’t fit your SOHC GT…..at least without thousands of dollars in additional/alternate parts.

    Although their displacement is very close to one and other, the old 2.2L capabilities are vastly higher than the 2.1L’s

    As far as will the old 2.2L work with a SOHC engine.....See my post previous to this.
    #63
  4. PonyboyIsaac

    PonyboyIsaac New Member

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    #64
  5. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    First off.....why are you yelling? :shrug: Damn you and your big letters. :fuss:

    Secondly......I think you and I may have different interpretations of the word "taper". I'm not stating that twin screw levels fall of, but their abilty to maintain said power levels diminishes greatly by compariosn.

    A centrifugal supercharger continues moves far less air than a Positive Displacement blower does at lower blower speeds. As a result, horsepower and torque down low, start off more on the mellow side. As the blower and engine RPM increases, so does the blowers capability of flowing air. As long as the blower is sized properly, ACT levels remain in check and It continues to make power exponentially until redline.

    A comparable twin screw moves vast amounts of air down low, so the power comes on hard and fast right from the start. Yes, the power does increase with load and RPM, just as it does with a centrifugal blower, but the compressor itself isn't moving any more air per revolution at 6,000 rpm, than it did at 2,000rpm. Not a huge deal.....as long as the compressor is sized properly, boost drop off won't be a problem. So in that sense, neither will the blowers ability to continue making power. But the additional discharge temperatures it's now creating at higher blower RPM (since it's widley known twin screw are far less adiabatically efficient than Centrifugals) is what diminshes it's ability to continue making horsepower......at least at the same rate it was making it in the lower ranges.

    As you know, anytime you compress the air, it creates heat, but twin screws because of their over all larger physical capacity, more friction prone internal moving parts and the method in which air is compressed directly inside the unit itself, makes more of it.

    As far as the horsepower rating. It's true, they didn't state that is was at the rear wheels, so I could have very well been out of line thinking that. If you are correct, and they're actually reffering to flywheel horsepower, then a more believable 445fwhp is probably right on the nose......since we agree most 1.7L's are putting about that much down with that pulley size and those mods.

    I wouldn't say he was fish tailing, but you're right. More than a "scratch". Again though....not overly impressive for a blower car. I could go take some video clips with my Explorer right now cutting it sideways on a 40mph drop on -20C pavement if you'd like. :D


    .......EH! :jester:
    #65
  6. SaleenGT2001

    SaleenGT2001 Well-Known Member

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    the numbers in the video ARE RWHP and no it isnty a roush. he has gauges but thats it. the cats are removed and he has a cat back on it.

    and about the "hick" accent it's NC and yes i am redneck and dont plan on changing!

    nobody believes me about this car. i have his dyno video to prove the numbers if there are any nonbelievers out there. i'm uploading right now
    #66
  7. TweekedGT

    TweekedGT New Member

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    I will never understand the whole my centri will take you at the top end excuse. What top end? My car is pulling like a bastard with only 10PSI through it's veins and I beat 9PSI fully built WS6's with Vortechs. I'm doing 115mph trap speed at 5500ft of altitude, sorry, no 10PSI vortech is catching me at "the top end". With a YSI trim or larger blower you may have a chance, S-trim or T trim, sorry.
    #67
  8. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    Lets keep in mind Tweeked, you're set up is no where near "typical". I know very well you're running a 14lb pulley on that blower (or did you forget some of use were around here when you were building that thing. :D ). The fact that you've increased your displacement to 5.0L, with fully ported heads and cams, along with full intake and exhaust mods is the only reason you're seeing only 10psi on the gauge.

    To tell you the truth, I think you're a little overconfident on this one. The fact of the matter is....the S-Trim (never mind the T-Trim) has a deeper set of lungs than your 1.7L has. Push either one of those blowers to their limits like you have your 1.7L, with the same type of modifications and I think you'll see you've more than met your match. ;)

    ....why do you think Kenne Bell dropped the 1.7L and 2.2L for the 2.1, 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8L blowers. They gotta do something to try to keep up with the Jones. :D
    #68
  9. 02LaserRed2V

    02LaserRed2V New Member

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    Sorry, but he's running more than 9 lbs of boost. His pulley is definitely smaller than mine. I'm doubtful a near stock GT like his can put down those kind of #s even with a KB 2.2L at 9 PSI. On average it takes near full bolt ons and full exhaust with 9 PSI to get it over 400rwhp. But a GT with a catback at 9 PSI making 445rwhp is bs. This has already been discussed in MPH forums and most other KB owners would agree that pulley looks awfully small to be making 9 lbs.
    #69
  10. ADRENLN

    ADRENLN Active Member

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    its not that the kb drop off up top, they keep rising. its just that the centris rise a whole lot faster in that range. the only way to tell is to look at the curves on the dyno graphs.

    yea they might end up at the same peak power. the kb comes on hard in the low rpms and the centri is way down on power in that range. get to 3500 rpm and the centri hp curve is going straight up in the air.

    what im saying is, if you have the rpm range of 2000-6000 and the kb starts a lot harder but they end with the same hp at 6000rpm, the centri came on a lot harder somewhere in that rpm range catching the kb.
    #70
  11. TweekedGT

    TweekedGT New Member

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    Alas your logic fails you :D. The last time I checked 10psi is only 10psi unless a new type of physics has magically appeared in the last 20 minutes. I have totally stock unported heads, don't have an intake, just the unported KB piece. The flow through of my set up just saves me from detonation, doesn't create more power. An s trim or t trim will never see the levels you believe they will because they could never keep a belt from slipping at 15+PSI. Who has the fastest modular on this website? Jim Fitzgerald. What type of blower does he have? A KB 2.2. His car runs 9's. Who on here has a modular power car with a centri blower running 9's? Can you find one? Just one, that's all I'm asking. Who is percieved to be the ultimate great knower of speed in the modular world? Tim from Modular Powerhouse. What does he use to create the most powerful cars. KB's. Sure he creates Vortech Mongoose kits but that is for volume sales for the cheap masses. The real power is from the KB units. Maybe not my puny 1.7. But i can tell you right now I won't back down from racing any centri car. By the time a centri car would "blow by me" we are way past the quarter mile mark or on the street doing well over 200kph which is just stupid anyway.
    #71
  12. TweekedGT

    TweekedGT New Member

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    That's exactly it "catching the KB" implying the centri is behind. If you end up at the same horsepower how could you pass a KB then?
    #72
  13. SaleenGT2001

    SaleenGT2001 Well-Known Member

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    video is up on streetfire. the dyno doesnt lie! it is a dyno jet not a mustang dyno, and i know it has been argued to death on MPH forums....but i saw the car put those numbers down. i have personally measured the pulley and it is the 9 psi one from KB. i dont know if it makes a differance but the blower was put on the car before it had its first oil change. i guess the engine was broken in with the blower so taht MAY have something to do with it. his car is a FREAK and i have never seen number like it with any other car but i know what is done and i know what it puts down. anyways enjoy the video.

    http://videos.streetfire.net/video/f9a50bc0-bb18-4fe7-be99-98d9012e672b.htm
    #73
  14. Unreal281

    Unreal281 New Member

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    :jaw:
    #74
  15. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    You need to pay attention to my posts more. ;) My logic is just fine, it's your interpretation of it that needs a little tune up. Unported heads aside (although I’m was almost sure you stated they were ported a while back :shrug: ), you've still got more displacement, blower specific cams and full bolt-ons. Just because you're making less boost, doesn't mean you're not making more horsepower. You are after all spinning the blower that much faster with the smaller pulley, forcing that much higher percentage of air to the engine with each revolution of the crank shaft, regardless of what your boost gauge says. The only reason you're seeing less PSI on the gauge, is because you've cut a lot of the inlet and outlet restrictions normally associated with the stock SOHC configuration. Seeing 10psi now, versus the 14psi a stock engine would with that pulley only means that you're now using that additional airflow (and as a result developing more horsepower) instead of having it backed up within the intake and exhaust restrictions of a stock GT engine.

    If we followed your logic, it would mean that a stock 4.6L with a 1.7L and a modified 4.6L (or larger) both seeing the same boost figures on their gauge are both seeing the same amount of horsepower. Which as we all know, isn't at all true.

    Again, the more "efficient" the engine combination, the more airflow it's going to use, instead of stacking it up within the intake and exhaust sides of the system.

    One thing you are right about though, is that the addition flow capabilities of your engine does ward off detonation, since cooler ACT's are realized as a result.

    Belt slip has nothing to do with the capabilities of the blower and can easily be correct by increasing the drive vs. driven pulley diameter and/or modification of the pulley system (ie true grip "saw cut" style blower pulley, additional ribs, cog drive, etc).

    As a matter of fact, it seems that it's the 1.7L that has trouble supporting the kind of horsepower the company claims, not the Vortech. I've never seen anyone make more than about 550rwhp (even with a modified 4.6L and race gas) utilizing the 1.7L compressor. And that’s running it waaaay out of it’s efficiency range. In theory it has the physical capacity to support the airflow needed for the power levels, but in reality the ACT's are too overwhelming at those levels and timing has to be cut and fuel has to be added in order to keep the engine together. On the other hand, I have seen modified SOHC sporting a Vortech supercharger clock in a almost 650rwhp. And that wasn't a T-Trim, it was the smaller S-Trim. Count on the T-Trim being able to support another 75-100rwhp beyond that.

    Jim actually runs a sports the 2.8L Kenne Bell race blower now, not a 2.2L. He ran mid-10's with the 2.2L of which there are plenty of Centrifugals based car capable of doing. If you'd like to compare race only blowers at that level, there are always Novi 3000's, F-Series ATI's and X, J, or Z-Trim Vortechs to compare it to? :shrug: Either way, things seem to be getting out of hand with the point of our debate.

    I'm sure some here would like to believe that. There's no denying he's a talented tuner, but there are dozens of tuners putting out all kinds of power packages that build cars every bit as fast and reliable as Tim does. He’s only one of many.

    Ahhhh, finally, back on topic. Don't take this offensively, but it has nothing to do with you being afraid to race a Centrifugally blown car. There's a famous quote...."never let fear or common sense stand in your way" and for whatever reason, you seem to have no trouble bypassing both of those right now? No more than a year ago, you were admittedly clueless in regards to what was what as far as supercharging went. Now, all of a sudden you're an expert?!? :scratch: You're mixing up the facts and letting too much of the internet chatter from guys who speculate or just plain don't know any better go to your head instead of looking at the cold hard facts. The fact is, is that you’re pitting your heavily modified combination against a lesser set up and calling it a fair comparison.

    Of course there are going to be flukes in either direction. Given the right circumstances and conditions a Honda could beat a Viper at least once. I mean hey.....even a broken watch is right twice a day, but this isn’t a Kenne Bell vs. the world argument. This is your 1.7L powered car vs. an S-Trim Vortech, or better being pushed to their limits with equally capable engine combinations. And I can tell you, with definitive conviction......all other factors being equal.......you'll lose a strait line quarter mile race against that car every time! And on the street it would be even worse, since the Centrifugal guy at least has half a chance of hooking things up on the bottom end. It has nothing to do with your level of bravery, or determination to win. Your particular blower just doesn't physically move enough air at an efficient rate to sustain the power levels needed in order to win!

    Tweeked…..don’t look at this as though I’m bashing you. I think you’re a nice guy and I’ve always liked you. But you’re views are really skewed on this one.
    #75
  16. ADRENLN

    ADRENLN Active Member

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    my point wasnt that a centri car will pass the kb, just that the centri is a better top end blower because that is the rpm range that it is going to be gaining on the kb car. maybe even passing it.:D
    #76
  17. jivepepper

    jivepepper Founding Member

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    Track times and trap speed?
    #77
  18. SaleenGT2001

    SaleenGT2001 Well-Known Member

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    track times on STREET tires are 12.1 @ 120 mph.
    again i have videos i'll have to find them tonight after work and upload them.
    #78
  19. TweekedGT

    TweekedGT New Member

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    You know what Banger, I think you are a smart prson but when it comes to supercharging I think you get sucked into debate to easily and your bias show through. If a centri blower is that efficient of a design then why are the fastest drag cars in the world running roots blowers and not centris? i would love to see any Centri style blower stand up to a Roots 14-71 pushing out 7500Hp. There is a reason they don't use them. Centri's cannot create the torque or power needed to propel a car to a 4.3 second quarter mile, anyone running in the higher classes of racing will use a Roots style or a Turbo system, centri's just don't work. Up to maybe 1500hp you may be ok. I have nothing against Centri blowers. I probably would have bought the YSI trim Vortech blower if they would have had it for my car at the time I got my KB. Be careful before you write stuff though, all I have are stock heads and have never proclaimed to have anything otherwise. I have asked if anyone knows of a good head porter but I have not done anything yet. This debate will never end. I still stand by my original post. For a street car by a KB, for a fun slightly modified strip car buy a Centri. Anyway you cut it you will have fun with a blower. There may be some good footage of the results of this debate in the Spring. One of my fellow Canada West posters lives in my city and has just got his Procharger fully built 97 Cobra 4valve ready for track duty. His car is putting out less HP and Torque numbers than mine on the exact same dyno. Proof will be in the pudding :D. I won't be afraid to post if I lose either. He is a good guy and I wouldn't mind losing to him.
    #79
  20. ADRENLN

    ADRENLN Active Member

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    tweeked, do you know you hp numbers yet? wait, you said he puts out less power then you. you must have you rwhp, i just never saw it listed?
    #80

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