Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by bnickel, Oct 24, 2005.
Any new updates?
Dont mean to hi-jack, but what is fays?
We should have a production prototype next week for verification, then the production run completed after that...We made a few tweaks and just want to check a few things.
Mike, got any preview pics of the 3 link?
The Fays2 is a bolt on Watts link that's been on the market for about a year and a half. It looks like this, as seen from the front of the car:
The big diff is that the Fays2 doesn't have the torque arm option.
Bump, last time....
Watt's starting to ship in 2 weeks
just got an email from Mike - they are starting to ship next week. You'll have to know your axle tube diameter, whether you want steel links with bushings or aluminum links with rod ends, and whether you're going to do bolt-in or weld-in installation.
I'm excited. I'll post pics of the install of the Watt's and whenever the 3-link is done (& I can afford it!) that too, with riding impressions. Mike was saying late August at the earliest for the TriLink . . .
well, I got my Watt's last week, but am waiting on installation instructions from EvM. It looks great, very nice construction. I want to wait for instructions so I can get the fitment exact - if it's welded in the wrong place, I'm worried that the 3-link assembly won't thread into the attachment holes correctly.
Still, I'm anxious to feel the effect of just the Watt's. It's what the '69 and '70 Trans-Am Boss mustangs used, so it must work well . . .
post up some pics.
3-12-06: "Working out the final geometries"
3-26-06: "Our first prototype is in the car . . . putting the finishing touches on the Watts. In the next week or two we should be done with everything."
4-27-06: "We should have a production prototype next week for verification, then the production run completed after that...We made a few tweaks and just want to check a few things."
7-22-06: "just got an email from Mike - they are starting to ship next week."
8-22-06: "I got my Watt's last week, but am waiting on installation instructions from EvM"
Two weeks late, and no instructions in the box? Five months from prototype to production of a rudimentary suspension component? These guys seem to have their adherents on this board, but there's nothing about this scenario that doesn't scream "flake" to me. And you're going to put their stuff on your car?
I'd rather they take their time, then to release poorly engineered parts.
I've been waiting for the three link for almost a year now. By waiting I mean my car is sitting in my garage and could be completed right now had I not chosen to wait.
I'm very frustrated that they haven't released the three link yet and I won't buy the watts until the three link is complete. The three link suspension was to be completed prior to the watts, yet still no three link.
I'd appreciate regular updates (good or bad) over nothing. If you're delayed you should be forthcoming and say so without question.
I've not invested any money, but I have invested my time. If I had invested my money, bought the watts expecting the three link to follow (soon) then I wouldn't be frustrated I'd be spitting furious!
A good 3-link will be worth the wait
I should post some pics of the Watt's for you, it looks well-made. I think a good 3-link is the best way to go for performance handling for our cars, and I'm basing that on arguments from corner-carvers.com. Those guys forget more about suspension design every day than I know. If they give the stamp of approval to a design, it has to be good, and they like the EvM 3-link.
The only thing that could perform better from all my reading would be a Satchell link 4-link suspension with the lower 2 arms angled in, but no one is making anything packaged for the early Mustang.
EvM is mainly a late-model Mustang performance place and this is a part of their business they're just getting started, so I'm willing to wait for a well designed product. I could be wrong, but I've been deliberating and reading about rear suspensions for about 2 years, and I haven't seen a better argument than for a 3-link.
As for customer service, they are willing to walk me through the installation on the phone - screw instructions, that's personalized service! I appreciate their well-reasoned tech on the main Watt's page. I'm not getting that kind of analysis out of any competing product . . .
pics to come of the Watt's . . .
guess I'm the EvM fanboy in these parts
amen to the first paragraph. As far as the second, I am actually curious to see how the Watt's performs with just the leafs. I know I have ancient, low-spring-rate leafs, but it will be interesting to see what this device, same type of thing as on trans-am Boss 302s, will do to the car.
I posted a site with some pics before installation (just scheduled it with my shop, may be a month so no hurry for me) and some rear suspension analyses in general, with a specific graphic of how a Watt's works:
I recieved my Watts last week
I am however currently;
So I think it will be sitting for a few more weeks before I can get around to installing it.
Hmmm. Does this even warrant a response. So lets see, two weeks to get the Watts developed (3/12-3/26), then off the mfg for the prototype. Mfg of the prototype took around 3 weeks because tooling needed to be developed, then add another week for our verification and that puts us at the end of May. Production pieces were ordered with a quote of 4 weeks to delivery. Production pieces slipped a week, so delivery hit the first week of July. We were not satisified with the powder-coat finish, so everything was shipped back. A few days to ship back, a week to sandblast and recoat, then a few days return shipping. That puts us to the end of July…Then we shipped product. This is how it worked out.
As for a rudimentary component and the term “flake”. Well we took away a SEMA award for our Watts link a few years back, I guess the SEMA folks reward rudimentary products. Following the success at SEMA, all of our products have had an overwhelming positive response. Obviously, we cannot please everyone, so we will be content with the masses.
Keep in mind we are not designing just a Watts, we are developing a complete rear suspension. Our cradle is designed with pick-up points for our TriLink and adjustable rear stabilizer bar. We already know you are not going to be a customer, you have the Fays system. Hell for all we know you have a relationship with Fays. We were out with a Watts before Fays, and to the best of my knowledge, all Fays offers is the Watts. So if developing a product based off of our SEMA award winning watts in two weeks, then enforcing QC on the finish of our parts is flaky, so be it.
Instructions... Our instructions are very detailed and complete, so they take time. In the interim we decided we could reference our current Watts instructions, and a phone call to explain the procedure to those who were chomping at the bit.
Good luck with the Fays….
We are sorry if you were under the impression that the TriLink would be released before the Watts. The TriLink requires the Watts link, so it has to come after. We had the general design, as well as a stabilizer bar design completed when we prototyped the Watts. We wanted to wait for the production pieces of the watts to finalize everything. This way we can be sure everything will work properly. We have the production pieces, so now we can complete the TriLink. Hopefully that will be in the early fall. Once the design is finalized, it’s typically a month for prototype and a month for production.
To your comment that you will not buy the Watts before the TriLink is complete. We understand that, but we also use the preorders to gauge interest. We had a tremendous response on the first pre-order, then when we asked for actual orders, there was a drop in interest. We are developing products for the GM vehicles as well. We put the Vintage Mustang crowd first, based on initial response. So, when there is a drop in interest we are faced with where to put our resources. In the end, we will finish up the Vintage Mustang stuff.
As for investing money, no one was charged for the Watts until the product was shipped, so everyone was charged in the end of July.
Regarding updates. The last thing on our to-do list is to scan all the message boards and comment on our daily activities. I monitor our traffic and if I see traffic coming in I will post accordingly. If you were one of the ones that ordered the Watts you would have received our update emails over the past few months. If you need a question answered and we haven’t surfaced on a message board, email us directly.
that's a great response, thanks - seeing how complete those installation instructions are, that bodes well for the clarity of the instructions for the Vintage Watt's once they're ready. I am always impressed by the professionalism of a company when they provide clear, complete install instructions.
I think anyone who reads the suspension design comparisons on that site I put up, and anyone who reads the pertinent threads on corner-carvers.com, would come away thinking that this is about the best you can do for a solid axle, and in many situations is better than an IRS. (anti-squat, dive, drag launches) I would say it beats the Unique/TCP $4500 deal and in many ways is desirable to the $10k Control Freak IRS system. Lots of bang for the buck here.
There are more vintage Mustangs on the road than the other muscle/pony cars, so I think it makes sense we are first to get this one, more market out there.
And I'm in no way affiliated with EvM, I've just read a ton and gone back and forth on rear suspension so many times, finally settled on this as the best solution and am encouraged by the build quality and the tech that has gone into this so far.
I did not know that you outsource your production. It makes sense that this choice causes delays and quality control problems.
I agree, I guess they do. And regardless of whether SEMA applies a "rudimentary" exclusion to its awards decisions, a Watts link consists of a cradle and two transverse links. That's rudimentary under any definition.
The "flake" comment applies to your decision to ship product without an instruction manual. Installing my Fays2, I probably referenced the instructions between 50 and a hundred times. Judging by the attitude I see in your current post, I don't believe the patience of you or your staff is going to last past the second or third phone call from any given customer, much less dozens of calls from dozens of customers.
You've really got this stuffed shirt thing down pat.
Most hobbyists have or will have more than one hobby car.
Oh brother. Yeah, me and Jim Fays are sitting here poolside at the palatial Fays2 World Domination Headquarters, sipping our umbrella drinks and plotting the destruction of all competing Watts link products for the vintage Mustang.
Oh brother part II.
All I know is that my experience teaches me that alibi-spinners like you are to be avoided.
All I wanted was a picture or some note of progress of the TriLink in the months that have passed since March of this year.
The answer to the drop in interest is held within your comment.
I'm not a huge fan of fora discussion and debate myself. Seeing how your main advertisement for your product is web based, and your draw for pre-orders mainly from forum groups such as this. I wouldn't think it such a hassle to spare a moment to inform your customers of your progress from time to time? You may want to address your order of priorities for the sake of your business, and to prevent the drop of any more pre-orders.
I was receiving updates for a while, but when I didn't blindly order the watts in prelude to your tri-link I was promptly taken off your list. I did send an email and I was given the same answer I was given here to my pic request. (no reply at all)
I'll come right out and say it now; You've got to be nucking futs to invest money in something you have no clue what the final design will look like!
I liked the way you did the fox body tri-link, but I have first hand experience at failing to design a three link within the package constraints of the vintage Mustang. Because of said experience I want to see the control arm lengths, I want to see the body mounting points; I want to see the geometry before I buy a "rudimentary component" in succession to an even bigger investment that for all I know could be total garbage with an awesome watts link for garnish.
I've offered my help for measurements, for bracketry design, and again I have a vehicle up on the rack just waiting... No one wants this suspension to be a success more than I do!
Sorry, I have to apologize in advance for this.
I must be in a mood today, but dayum...
That's a lot of instruction reading for the installation of a "rudimentary component".
Again, I'm sorry.
Driveshaft was in the way?
You are right sundance....the thread has taken a turn for the heavy.
I prefer to flame or praise after I do the install. While I was bored waiting for the watts, I didn't have money or an undrivable car tied up waiting for it so I guess I in the minority. I simply got in on the pre-buy. Made a commitment to purchase and then paid for the item when it shipped.
It would be great if the 3 link is out before winter though cause than I can install it during the cold winter months here in the N.E. when I decided to stop driving the car because of a little icy road and truck incident a few years back.