Below Is An Email I Received From An Engine Reman Guy, I Scoff

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by 90lxwhite, Nov 7, 2013.


  1. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    You do whatever makes money. I would move onto something like that too if I was him. The Ford head market has become too competitive. I think the crux of my argument is that anything you do a GT40P head you can do to an E7 and they flow about the same. I'm sure I could get my engine builder to machine up some nice 12 second E7 heads for under $400 with new valve guides and a fresh valve job. My old engine builder used to do a nice set of 12 second E7 heads for $300, but that was 90s prices.

    Kurt
     
    #41
  2. A5literMan

    A5literMan Mustang Master

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    Umm I don't think a n/a 400$ e7 head can get a full weight car into the 12s. Not without the problems you discussed earlier with detonation,driveability issues,etc. I do agree with the comparisons of the ported versions of any iron ford head being equal in power potential. No way is it worthwhile to do an iron head vs an alum head. Unless you just want a stock like rebuild on the cheap
     
    #42
  3. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    I had a friend in high school run a 12.8 with a ported, milled E7 head, Steeda 18 cam, and a Cobra intake. That was back in 1997 in 92 LX hatch with 3.73 gears. It was a full weight car.

    Kurt
     
    #43
  4. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    But this is where the flaw in your argument lies. A ported set of E7's and a ported set of GY40's do not flow the same.

    Ported GT40's are encroaching on GT40X numbers, where E7's (even heavily worked) don't have a prayer of moving that much air.
     
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  5. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

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    That was what I was trying to say. Apples and oranges. They do not flow the same even with porting. For reference http://www.carbdford.com/tech/flowdata.htm

    No way would I spend the money to port any production head when for a few hundred more you can get a set of alum heads that 1) weigh 50lbs less and 2) flow as well or better out of the box and give you so much more room to grow with a combo. For about $300 my Explorer heads were worth it and are night and day between the stock E7's.

    If you are talking $700-800 then it's a whole different animal- used set of TW or AFR's are a no brainer.
     
    #45
  6. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    You have some pretty screwed up data there. First off, not that I would anyway prefer an iron head over an aluminium, but aluminiums aren't 50lbs lighter. They are also a lot more expensive. It's not just the cost of the head, it's the bigger intake, the cam, everything that goes along with a better flowing head. I put the data for a thumper head below. That's a lot more than a GT-40P. If you can show data for a ported P head that's much greater than that, go for it. In the past I have seen a few snips of flow data on ported P heads, and they do squeak out a little ahead, but not by much. It's just not rocket science. The two heads are very similiar in design, the E7 just has smaller ports. You take out the extra metal that Ford put in there, and they flow about the same. A port job is going to cost you between $100 and $200. That's cheaper than buying a P head out of a junkyard. It's simply more economical to use ported stock heads that waste time and money getting another iron head out of a junkyard.

    Ford 302 E7TE Ported Thumper IronN/A1.78/1.46N/A73/54
    74%121/104
    86%178/135
    75.8%
    71.5/80.6
    212/239
    .727/.672197/150
    76.1%
    79.2/89.6
    235/265
    .603/.56219/155
    70.8%
    88/92.6
    261/274
    .536/.463220/160
    72.7%
    88.4/95.6
    262/283
    .449/.398
     
    #46
  7. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    sigh...... :rolleyes:

    ...and again. $700 to my door, straight out of the machine shop. Fresh valve job, new valve seals, decked, cleaned and ready to bolt on.


    I'd love to see the publication your number were quoted from?

    Thumpers head flow figures have been well documented by many buyers at this point and have shown to be more motivated towards "selling heads" than providing an accurate depiction of their data. I can tell you right now....those figures don't represent the vast majority of the heads he has sold.

    Here's some more data collected. These were provided by Tom Moss

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You'll notice right off the bat the considerable port effort put into the E7TE's in comparison to the GT40's. Polished runners, blended into smoothed and polished bowls. Not really an even comparison right off the bat, but it's what we have to work with. It should also be noted that the E7TE's were using a larger 1.54" exhaust valve.

    You see how the GT40 flow figures at .400 matches the E7TE flow figures @.600 lift. You'll also notice the CFM improvement between .400-.800 for the E7TE's has increased all of 24cfm....and only by 5cfm after .600?

    Compare that to the GT40's that have bested E7TE's highest peak flow figures by .500 and show a 34cfm improvement between .400-.800....and a 52cfm improvement over the E7TE's at the same lift figures over all?

    So yeah, like I said. Port them both and the GT40/GT40P's still come out ahead.
     
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  8. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    Half of your data is missing. Is the second data the GT-40P ported head? I'm showing a 219 @ .500" vs 231 @ .500" with a 1.78" valve vs a 1.94" valve. I don't think your data is helping your argument at all. I got mine from the Stan Weiss database.

    http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm

    Kurt
     
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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  9. 90lxwhite

    90lxwhite I'm kind of a She-Man

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    Used heads and power adders n such gimme the willies. What if they arrive and they're all f'd up so then off to the machine shop they go and the savings are out the window. Also I'll add this; I'm gonna throw this out there one more time since we're using "Thumpers" for a ported e7 reference, they were running $800! That's just outrageous, y'all have to agree w that even if they do flow "as seen on tv." So I'll leave y'all w a question, would a ported ho lower work w gt40x heads? I know prob not a very good "combo" but would they physically bolt up? Once upon a time a frpp tech guy told me no they won't bolt up.
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  10. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Not my data....Tmoss's data. :) The info is there in black and white. I don't know how much more clear it could be made. Also yes, the 2nd head is the GT40P. And you are correct....the ported GT40P is only besting the heavily worked over E7TE by 12cfm at .500. But you'll also notice that the E7's have all but signed off by then and the GT40P's continue to flow.

    I think my data helps my argument just fine. You claim that when worked over, both heads flow the same. I have proven that they do not. In fact...by .300, the GT40P walks away and keeps on pedaling from the E7. Sure, the P has a larger 1.94 intake valve....but then the E7's have a larger 1.54 exhaust valve? You'll also note the quality of the port job between the two heads. The E7 is smoothed and polished, and heavily worked over (including polished chambers and evidence of a bowl hogger to uniformly enlarge the bowl area's to boot), where the GT40P is rough ported, completely by hand with next to no finish work. The labor costs alone sunk into the E7's makes it not worth the effort.

    As for your source, it's pretty much as I expected. Just a compilation of data taken form various formats. The Thumper data provided is by his own admission. As stated, many have flowed his heads over the years and not gotten near the same results. He's claiming they outflow Powerhead CNC ported units with 1.84/1.54 valves by more than 35cfm on the exhaust side and almost 25cfm on the intake side for god sakes. That's better than out of the box GT40X's, Edelbrock Performers, early AFR 165's, Dart 195's and about a dozen others all found on that same list. Heck, they even seem to match the flow numbers on the intake side of the old AFR 185's and 205.s.....I mean.....c'mon, let's get real here. :rlaugh:
     
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  11. 90lxwhite

    90lxwhite I'm kind of a She-Man

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    While sum e7's can make relatively fair power I think I'm gonna call thumper hogwash. While not technical data I once read a guys review of the thumpers. It went something like this; "they're ok but not alot of bang for the buck, its more of a pop." Oh and e7 worth messin with? Like everyone says, only if you're doing the work yourself. Time is $ and gas ain't cheap. Ported e7's for $800 for Pete's sake.....
     
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  12. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Will they physically bolt up.....yes. Will the ports match....not even close. I had to removed some material from the upper part of my Trick Flow Track heat to port match them to my GT40X's....and the Track Heat runners are bigger than the E7TE and Explorer intake put together. The GT40X's have higher intake ports than a lot of other heads. I don't think there's physically enough material on the stock E7 lower intake to make it work. Never mind no volume to make it flow even after the port match. There's really no excuse to reuse the stock intake. Not when Explorer intakes can be had for all of $150 or less!

    One more reason that Explorer heads are such a good back for the buck.....because they're generally paired with the Explorer intake and 65mm throttle body as well. Buy it as a package. Spend some money on a good valve job, a set of springs, a hot cam and a mile home port job and you're racing. Running 12's in a full weight Fox body with minimal effort and minimal cash outlay. Heck...I'd even use the Explorer short block!

    I bought an entire running low mileage Explorer engine for $300. Pretty hard to beat that deal. I sold the heads for as much as I paid for the entire engine and traded the intake + an old BBK CAI for a complete ZEX nitrous kit. It left me with a spare block that I had machined up for my 331 stroker assembly. My car was down for all of a week between transplants. That Explorer engine was probably the best money I've ever spent on this car to date, to be honest!
     
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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  13. 90lxwhite

    90lxwhite I'm kind of a She-Man

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    The tmoss ported lower was probably the worst $ I ever spent... I paid too much to wanna just junk it. Just peeked at eBay for a explorer intake price reference, $230 seems to be bout the avg 300+ on the high end
     
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  14. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    The TMoss lower isn't a bad intake per say, it's just severely limited.....much like a worked over set of E7TE's. There's power to be made, but anyone with a set of off the shelf aluminum heads, or intake is going to eat your lunch if given the opportunity.

    Don't bother with Ebay. People think they're selling gold on there, then want to charge you a premium to ship their crap.

    I get all of my used parts through this site. It compiles all of the wrecking yards in North America. Enter your zip code and it'll tell you the closest yard to you, the year/make/model vehicle it came off of, price of the item and it's condition.

    http://car-part.com/

    Go for the '96/early-97 intake if you've still got your EGR system functioning. Later intakes were not drilled for the EGR provision.
     
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  15. 90lxwhite

    90lxwhite I'm kind of a She-Man

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    Oh and by the way, the moss lower is on the 95, so I'd have to get the elbow n all that crap too
     
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  16. Gearbanger 101

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    Trick Flow makes a nice intake elbow adapter for the Fox upper. :)
     
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  17. 90lxwhite

    90lxwhite I'm kind of a She-Man

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    Yeah man damn 94/95 intakes gotta get a $100 elbow to run anything other than stock. Nickle n diming me to death
     
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  18. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    Oh man here it comes. Someone is going to recommend a Fox throttle body swap now.

    Throw all the data you want at it. There is a thread on this website documenting the experience of those trying to get 30rwhp out of there GT-40P heads. Same power people are getting with E7s.

    Kurt
     
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  19. A5literMan

    A5literMan Mustang Master

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    Name of the game right there! I didn't realize at first how much the small crap was going to add up to also. Gotta pay to play. Lol
     
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  20. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry?
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    I can't understand for the life of me how this thread has gone on this long...

    :pop:
     
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