Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by Z28x, May 28, 2004.
I said car not vehicle, truck, SUV, etc.
They all have 4 wheels, close enough
I agree with letting customers decide which engine they want. Most people dont care about handling, they just want straight line power. Ford should offer more than 2 engine options in the Mustang. Look at the early 70's Mopars. They had a million engine options: slant 6, v6, 318, 340, 383, 440, 426. The big block were there for the people who wanted them, and the smaller, lighter V8's were there for the people who didnt need a 426 hemi, and wanted better handling.
They will have at least 3 engine options. V6, 4.6 3V, Cobra?. And a customer can always choose what engine they want. You buy the car and then swap it out and sell teh original motor. Today's assembly lines are slightly more automated than the 70's. Would it be nice to have other engine choices from Ford? Sure. Will it or could it even happen. I'm not so sure on that.
Not to start anything. But have you been reading these forums long? There has been a good sized group of people advocating IRS on the gt. For the reason of handling.
And there were "a million" engine options on Fords in the 1960's too.
You can't compare the 60's to today, it is a completely different world and the car market is completly different.
The 1960's started out with NO emissions regulations and ended with emissions requitements that were a joke compared to today.
In the 1960's most US car models sold hundreds of thousands of cars (up to 600,000 Mustangs per model year). Today Ford will be estatic if they sell more than 180,000, 2005 Mustangs.
In the 1960's there were no MPG requirements for any model car and there were no fleet MPG requirements. Today you can't just throw an engine into a car you have to think of the regulatory requirements.
In the 1960's you got a 12 month / 12K mile warranty. Today it is a minimum of 36 mo / 36K miles.
In the 1960's import / foreign manufacture cars were an insignificant part of total vehicle sales. Today Ford & GM have a cost structure that makes it almost impossible for them to compete with the foreign base auto companies. They just cannot spent the $$ it requires to have 10 engine options as they would never make a profit on that # of engine options.
Now with all that said, the average car today has far more HP than the average car in the 1960s and the average car today is far faster than the average car in the 1960s. If you want to look at #'s, the SVT Cobra is the fastest factory stock production Mustang EVER sold. Most of those many engine options from the 1960's are obsolete because no one today would ever buy a Mustang with a 120 HP 6 cyl engine.
Finally, I beg to differ with you, most people do care about handling (plus braking, comfort and safety). The only people who really care ONLY about straight line speed are a small and ever shrinking minority of vehicle customers. Don't belive me, just take a look at what % of new car sales were imports in 2003.
I would actually have said. Look how many people are buying the AWD cars (WRX, STI, Evo). Handling is becoming considerably more important that straightline accleration. Peoploe are finally figuring out. That if it's good for 10 seconds. It's got to be even better for an hour or more.
Pontiac Grand Prix came out in 1962
Cadillac DeVille came out around 1948(give or take a year)
THe Lincoln Town Car name has been around since the 60's right? (1967?)
What does the number of "imports" sold in 2003 have to do with handling??? What about the increasing number of trucks and SUVs sold in the last 10 years.
I think everyone wants a car that does everything good, but there are compromises. Good handling vs. smooth ride, lots of HP vs. good fuel economy, etc.. Not every car needs to pull 1.00g, 99% of Sedan buyers would rather have a car that does .80g and has a nice soft ride instead of excellent .90g handling and a "sports car" ride.
I'm thinking the imports are going to be more direct competition than the truck. Unless they build that mustang with a truckbed. Or are you in the Chevy camp that thinks the colorado. With the handling package is a natural competitor with the V6 stang.
That's not really what I meant. I meant that I think people care more about power than fancy suspension. Yes, IRS does give a smoother ride, but I doubt very many people care what it does for them as far as handling goes. I think there is a very small amount of the car buying public that cares whether or not thier car can corner really well. But on the other hand, I bet there are a lot more people who would be swayed in thier purchase if one car they are looking at has 100hp more than another. THe only people who will really benefit from a well tunes sports suspension, are those who will take their car out on a road course. And while people who take thier car to the drag strip are few and far between, people who take thier car to a closed road course are even more rare.
The point that I was making was that in the 1960s American cars has lots of power but most of them handled horribly. On the other hand most imports had less power buy handled better. This was one (of several) factors that lead to the market share gains that imports have had.
You're right, pulling 1.00g on a skid pad doesn't mean much. What is important is how the car handles and how easy and comfortable it is to drive through corners and make directional changes on less that perfect roads while delivering a comfortable (I said comfortable not soft) ride.
The main benefit of IRS is that it delivers both cornering ability and comfort in the real world, that is bumpy, crowned, cracked and frost heaved roads. That is what is important to most customers. On a perfectly smooth race track IRS isn't much better than a solid axle, but out in the real world its a different story.
Glad I got you to put your thinking cap on.
I'm going to argue against the Grand Prix.
The Grand Prix was originally a large 2 door, performance luxury car. Over the years it changed quite a bit becoming FWD, 4 doors etc. So it has not remained the "same" car as the original.
The DeVille has remained closer to its origins (larger luxo-bardge) but it also degenerated to FWD.
by the way the boss car was the road race package and the mach was the drag car..... Also everyone I have talked to (and I know quite a few) have been saying that ford is actively pursuing an all aluminum 3 valve 5.4 that won't won't be much heavier than the 4.6 as their motor for the cobra. And by the way 100 pounds is only 1/10 in the 1/4 mile vs the gains to be had from the 5.4. Also you can't compare the imports because the vast majority that are selling are camry's and family sedans not cars like the wrx or evo (which still have close to 300 hp). They are still a very small percentage of sales. And lastly I think you will see plenty of gm diehards in fords showrooms when the new mustang hits the lots.