Blower VS H/C/I

[99FiveOh]

Point blank is this: If you wanna mod a 94/95 Mustang you'd better be prepared to pay to have it tuned or start learning how to tune yourself.

Either way, you're gonna have to upgrade stuff like injectors, MAF, fuel pump, etc.. You can't use any of those item's costs to make one decision or the other because they're really necessary for a successful build either way you go.

I can tell you right now that Vortech is second to none when it comes to fit and finish of their products. They really do their homework and they're kits really are "bolt in and go" kits. My car ran and got me around when I first installed the blower, but a tune really made it come alive! The drivability was spot on without the tune also. If the cam doesn't get along with your computer, you'll have to have it tuned almost immediately.

I've heard all kinds of nightmares with KB blowers. They make an awsome posi blower, but I feel they left alot on the table when they designed the kit for our cars. Most of the time blown head gaskets with KB blowers are a result of the enormous amounts of heat they create as well as the low end boost that's hard to get out of in time to prevent damage. Also, on a street car or the track, if you don't have traction the guy in the next lane with the centri will walk right way from you while your tires are boiling!!

I've never installed H/C/I myself as a kit, but dealt with all of that individually. There is alot more involved in swapping heads and cams than there is installing a blower. The sound of a nasty cam in a Mustang is sweet music too! One of these days I'll do H/C/I on a 351 along with my blower, but for now I'm happy I went with an S trim first. I like it, it was a nice kit and I'm very satisfied with it's preformance!

 

[99FiveOh]

According to Vortech, shipping weight of the kit is 51 lbs.

 

[S351Saleen77]

Alright.

I didn't use an FMU, I have 42# injectors, a PMAS 80mm MAF, a Walbro 255 HP LPH fuel pump and a dyno tune somewhere in the ballpark of 12.2 for the a/f ratio. However, despite FMU usage or not you still need the fuel to make the power.

Whether or not you push into boost your S/C requires power to turn, and despite your argument of "an object in motion tends to stay in motion", it still requires a good deal of energy. The figure that I hear most often for a supercharger is ~15% parasitic loss. I think you are underestimating the air/fuel/engine power it requires.

There is nothing wrong with a stock motor with a power adder making over 100 extra flywheel hp/tq and getting 15 mpg. I don't see how you can expect to make those extra ponies without extra fuel, that makes no sense.

A H/C/I (if put together with thought and the right parts) can be much more efficient than the stock motor, especially if you add better supporting hardware (example: ignition). A person doesn't have to throw a Perform RPM II with a powerband of 1500-6500, they can find one with a better runner length and flow design that builds power way down low. The stock longblock offers you the same restrictions when adding a blower and my chart shows that. Find a chart of someone who did a H/C/I and look at the curves.

I don't want to sound like a d***, but I think you are overconsidering some things and underconsidering others. I have the Vortech on the stock longblock, I have the mileage, and I feel I have a good grasp of what's going on with it.

NOW I understand why you don't get the gas mileage!

I hit it right on the head earlier,you had a tune and the fuel map was changed. I don't think I need to go into this one any further.

I had a FMU and didn't change the fuel map and got the same mileage on the freeway before and after......Oh yeah minus the 1/10th mpg it took to spin it!

On the 15% loss or taking alot of power to run the blower at low rpm. You really think that it takes alot to turn it under NO LOAD @ 2000rpm?? I guess nothing I will say can convince you. Physics don't apply. Oh well I tried

 

[HGFireHazard]

NOW I understand why you don't get the gas mileage!

I hit it right on the head earlier,you had a tune and the fuel map was changed. I don't think I need to go into this one any further.

I had a FMU and didn't change the fuel map and got the same mileage on the freeway before and after......Oh yeah minus the 1/10th mpg it took to spin it!

On the 15% loss or taking alot of power to run the blower at low rpm. You really think that it takes alot to turn it under NO LOAD @ 2000rpm?? I guess nothing I will say can convince you. Physics don't apply. Oh well I tried

Obviously physics do apply, the 15% is the average power it takes to turn the unit. It also, obviously, takes less power to maintain an average speed (read: cruise). I consider an FMU a band-aid to temporarily allow your car to run, and it isn't the best or safest route to prevent breaking things or blowing head gaskets.

Besides, I don't feel we can consider power when also considering mileage; they don't belong in the same sentence unless you are referring to an inverse relationship. If you mention 300 horsepower you can't also mention 20 mpg, because you don't get that, you see what I mean? Nobody buys go-fast parts to not use them, and a person will most likely see some change in mileage.

In the end, you have to consider the loss in mileage with the power, because nobody cruises 100% of the time either, and I know lots of people that spend a hell of a lot less time than 80% cruising like I do, which in my mind makes the comparison even less valid.

I think it's great you think the power adder is the better way to go, I think it's the more fun choice, but you have to be realistic with all aspects of the installation and use. A tune is a great idea, so is upgrading fuel parts, but as mentioned earlier it's a great idea for both NA and S/C upgrades.

By the way, I don't think you had enough fun with your charger if you were still getting stock gas mileage

 

[S351Saleen77]

Obviously physics do apply, the 15% is the average power it takes to turn the unit. It also, obviously, takes less power to maintain an average speed (read: cruise). I consider an FMU a band-aid to temporarily allow your car to run, and it isn't the best or safest route to prevent breaking things or blowing head gaskets.

Besides, I don't feel we can consider power when also considering mileage; they don't belong in the same sentence unless you are referring to an inverse relationship. If you mention 300 horsepower you can't also mention 20 mpg, because you don't get that, you see what I mean? Nobody buys go-fast parts to not use them, and a person will most likely see some change in mileage.

In the end, you have to consider the loss in mileage with the power, because nobody cruises 100% of the time either, and I know lots of people that spend a hell of a lot less time than 80% cruising like I do, which in my mind makes the comparison even less valid.

I think it's great you think the power adder is the better way to go, I think it's the more fun choice, but you have to be realistic with all aspects of the installation and use. A tune is a great idea, so is upgrading fuel parts, but as mentioned earlier it's a great idea for both NA and S/C upgrades.

By the way, I don't think you had enough fun with your charger if you were still getting stock gas mileage

The stock mileage was on another car which is long gone. I'm making close close to 800hp with a safe tune on my 408ci right now. Look at my sig at the beginning of this thread

This whole thing started with a question about getting mileage ,driveability, and 300rwhp. I was saying that with a STOCK Vortech kit you CAN do this. Put on the cruise control and take a trip and get 20mpg. I have done it!! Look back in this thread and see what Vortech claims the kit does.

 

[S351Saleen77]

This thread is getting long and people are coming in not really knowing what its about.

Please read it all o.k.

Here is a link to my car, you can see how my manifold is made for great fuel economy Another thing is I don't need more low end torque. I can't hook it up on the street anyway, which is why a centri is nice.

These are old pics and specs on the car, things have been changed since then.

http://www.bradscustomauto.com/Mustangs/TomRice/TomRice.html

 

[99FiveOh]

It would be nice if we could actually "read" those articles about your car Tom!

 

[S351Saleen77]

It would be nice if we could actually "read" those articles about your car Tom!

You can. when you scroll down the page they are printing out the article along with what it says under each picture.

Or you can buy a overpriced copy right now

OOPS the link didn't work...Ebay item # 280089727491 . Somebody is selling an issue right now!

 

[S351Saleen77]

It would be nice if we could actually "read" those articles about your car Tom!

Tell you what, come on out to the Seattle area and I will take you for a ride!
You can see the specs and feel them in your neck when I hit the gas!

 

[turbogt]

You guys can't fool yourself into thinking that you are going to get stock gas mileage with a blower. You can't add over 100 horsepower and keep your stock mileage, it doesn't make sense. If (when) you get a tune you need to richen the AF ratio and that automatically drops your mileage. I lost 5 mpg highway being good, 6 giving it a good beating, and I drive about 80% highway, the same as before the charger.

NA offers you a long and broad torque curve (usually) where a blower doesn't quite so well, on a stock longblock anyways. I build max torque at 3800-4000 and max hp around 5000 so it isn't exactly ideal. The power is great, but I believe a solid H/C/I is the best place to start. I knew when I started with my car that I wanted right near 500 rwhp/rwtq, and that I wanted to go that route with a good H/C/I and a blower, so I went with the one that I would consider more fun first, otherwise I would have went H/C/I first.

I sure as hell did.. I get 22 mpg on the highway at 80 with 4.10's... Was 24 with the blower befor the gears.. if you arent into boost and you have an FMU, there really isn't anything that can change your mileage... you won't run richer, nothing has changed except a possible inlet restriction..

 

[99FiveOh]

Tell you what, come on out to the Seattle area and I will take you for a ride!
You can see the specs and feel them in your neck when I hit the gas!

Funny! Yeah, but ponder this, for the price of gas to get there and back (won't fly.. don't ask!) I could have a healthy start on my 351 build and feel that power in my own car!

 

[S351Saleen77]

I sure as hell did.. I get 22 mpg on the highway at 80 with 4.10's... Was 24 with the blower befor the gears.. if you arent into boost and you have an FMU, there really isn't anything that can change your mileage... you won't run richer, nothing has changed except a possible inlet restriction..

RIGHT ON MY VORTECH BROTHER! RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!

This has been a tough crowd to convert....................

But I have faith...........................................................

One day they will come before the GREAT VORTECH GOD....

they will kneel before him and say........................................

HALLELUIAH!! I BELIEVE!! I BELIEVE!! Praise to you oh great VORTECH.

We FINALLY SEE THE LIGHT!!!

 

[S351Saleen77]

Funny! Yeah, but ponder this, for the price of gas to get there and back (won't fly.. don't ask!) I could have a healthy start on my 351 build and feel that power in my own car!

O.K. I won't ask why you won't fly?? Guy's like you would put me out of a job

By all means spend your hard on money on 351 based power......I will convert you to a 408 stroker..............just give me time.....you will convert to the God of cubic inches......then you will have seen your true being.......Blown and stroked.....you will have two Gods then...........I will save you!!!!

And life will be good!!!! AMEN

 

[HGFireHazard]

I think too many people have misguided opinions about the point that I am trying to make.

Telling someone they can have 22 mpg with a blower isn't helping them. My 15 includes having fun with the car and driving it like I would presume a person putting several thousand dollars of power adder into their car would. I don't know what I'd get if I took a whole tank out of boost, but I doubt I'd be pulling 22, and (no offense), I'm having a hard time believing you pull 22 at 80 with 4.10s. Not to say that it isn't possible I guess, but I don't personally don't believe it.

With that being said, I feel this thread has lost its direction and this is my last post in it, I hope that anyone taking information from this thread reads all the information extremely carefully and looks for other threads for information before taking a quick leap into a project that might not be what they want.

 

[99FiveOh]

Anyone who is worried about gas mileage shouldn't be worrying about more power..or driving a V8 Mustang for that matter!

 

[S351Saleen77]

I think too many people have misguided opinions about the point that I am trying to make.

Telling someone they can have 22 mpg with a blower isn't helping them. My 15 includes having fun with the car and driving it like I would presume a person putting several thousand dollars of power adder into their car would. I don't know what I'd get if I took a whole tank out of boost, but I doubt I'd be pulling 22, and (no offense), I'm having a hard time believing you pull 22 at 80 with 4.10s. Not to say that it isn't possible I guess, but I don't personally don't believe it.

With that being said, I feel this thread has lost its direction and this is my last post in it, I hope that anyone taking information from this thread reads all the information extremely carefully and looks for other threads for information before taking a quick leap into a project that might not be what they want.

I'm sorry you feel this way

I think that I have tried to keep the thread in the right direction....It kept going other ways. If you have a stock car and 2 choices what would you do. I started this to make people think more about a Vortech kit. Hopefully they will. The reason I did so was because of another thread and 90% were for H/C/I. I wanted to make people think about the Vortech kit. Yeah we don't agree that it won't take more fuel at a steady state cruise. You think it will take alot I don't.
But thats o.k.

Thanks for your input!

 

[dstang01]

Anyone who is worried about gas mileage shouldn't be worrying about more power..or driving a V8 Mustang for that matter!

well, not entirely true.. an h/c/i getting 12 mpg and another getting 20 mpg will make a significant difference in the pocketbook. mid to high 20's should not be expected with a v8 mustang, but gas mileage is still a concern for those who have daily/semi daily driver stangs (especially with the insane gas prices )

 

[dstang01]

I'm sorry you feel this way

I think that I have tried to keep the thread in the right direction....It kept going other ways. If you have a stock car and 2 choices what would you do. I started this to make people think more about a Vortech kit. Hopefully they will. The reason I did so was because of another thread and 90% were for H/C/I. I wanted to make people think about the Vortech kit. Yeah we don't agree that it won't take more fuel at a steady state cruise. You think it will take alot I don't.
But thats o.k.

Thanks for your input!

I started the previous thread, and reading this thread gets me thinking about a vortech again. All the points you made are valid, and its tempting to bolt up a vortech and call it a day, but the stock longblock h/c/i is very restrictive. Putting a supercharger onto the stock engine is like blowing really hard into a straw to fill a balloon. Sure it gets the job done, but there are more efficient ways to do this, such as expanding the diameter of the straw. This applies mainly to the goal of sub 300rwhp performance, if my goal was bigger numbers, Id no doubt go with a centri (on top of a mild h/c/i) rather than go with a bigger h/c/i. What Im trying to convey is, the reason we modify our 5.0s is to increase the lack of power ford gave us from the factory, and the logical way to do this is to replace what ford gave us with more efficient equipment. Once you establish this base, forced induction just multiplies the fun The reason I considered a charger in the first place was so that I could retain stock behavior, but get a good boost when the loud pedal is stomped. What Ive learned is that a mild h/c/i retains stock behavior as well, and actually increases the overall efficiency of the 5.0, and this is why Im leaning towards that route.

 

[5spd GT]

What is your cruise rpm? In the 2000-2300 range a H/C/I is normally down on power so you have to press harder and use more gas! If you cruise at 3000rpm a H/C/I will be more efficient.

Has anbody here had old musclecars?? When you look at the cam catalogs they recommend high rpm cruising 3000-3500 because thats where the cams are efficient. Because they didn't have overdrive 5spds.

My cruise rpm is between 2,000 and 2,400 rpm.

It is easier to accelrate and doesn't have to work as hard to get to speed.

I gained 10 mph with the swap. Just an S-trim on my 'stock' engine probably would not have got me that.

Superchargers show some peak numbers. H/C/I have a higher mean of power throughout. Both are nice

As for the old cams, well as grady stated nicely - technology is much more advanced with tons more research.

As for the Edelbrock test results, they should have compared it to an S/C trim. A mediocre heads/cam package vs. a not so fair comparison to an S trim. The S trim should be compared to a better h/c/i package, like AFR's/TW's, custom cam and nice flowing intake.

I say get h/c/i, then bolt on the supercharger and have both

 

[m0l0]

Why still be fighting for this Sc vs HCI, i mean both combos are great and combined they make the best combination for the street.


I just see some arguments that some of them are not so valid.

This was my point of a H/C/I combination, by choosing the H/C/I you will probably loose power down low especially in the cruise rpm and you can affect your mileage.

A H/C/I will normally loose power down in the rpm range where a blower looses nothing and adds as the rpm increases. So saying a H/C/I as a broad torque curve and a blower does not is also not true.

Thats not True at all, I feel my car as stock strong from 1500 or even more torquey than stock, i definetly didnt loose any torque down low, and i havent changed gears i am still with the 3.08 so know what i am talking about.

I gained mpg over my stock engine when I swapped to h/c/i. Rougly a 3 mpg gain. The gas didn't have to be pressed 'near' as hard to get it to move the same way... Ran more efficiently.

I absolutely agree with you, my MPG has consistenlty increased with the H/C/I as the same statement you are making, even on 5th at 2000 rpms the car is strong to pull on the highway if i have to make a pass , i dont neet to go down to 4th only if you get to show something.


Both combinations are good and both can trash any MPG if you start to push the pedal. so why fight.


H/C/I can be seem more "expensive" because you get to buy gaskets, timming chain etc etc list goes on and on.

However if you go with a SC Kit really you should not expect to your 11,12 year old head gaskets to be any reliable on any boost application.

Both routes are killer options but if you combine both of them you get a much much better car in the end.