Blower VS H/C/I

[gcomfx.com]

I agree... get both, stroke it, add some juice.... call it a wonderful day.

 

[final5-0]

Like was said above ... this thread has lost its original direction.

Each type of combo has some strong points and weak as well.

Myself and others (who have done boost btw) simply said a NA combo would
most likely be less of a hassle, cause less issues about gas quality, and
other things boost can cause one to deal with.

Most peeps here, as it seems to me, are trying to keep things on an equal
basis such as a NA combo with well selected parts and tuned correctly with
the same said for a forced combo.

My gosh ... Over and Over we have said Centri's are good, KB's are good,
NA is good, and now I will say this, ... Turbos are good as well ...........

Hey its all about the APPLICATION that fits ones NEEDS and DESIRES.

As for each option .............. I can say I have done enough research to know
the pros and cons of each ... and ... I personally like them all.

As for being converted over to accepting only one of those options is the
be all and end all ... Well ... It just ain't gonna happen.

No single one of any of those options give all pros and no cons
If one keeps an open mind
and
Obtains info from each group of peeps who DID or have DONE it
Well ... I just don't see how anyone can come to any other conclusion

The following is about what motivates me:

I could not give a rats azz about these things ..........
Not hooking on the street in 1st gear
Making mega hp for dyno bragging
Super low et & Super high 1/4 mph

My GT is a ... weekend only STREET CAR
and
Here is what is most important to me .............
Good low and mid range torque

I wanna be able to enjoy that kind of torque band when cruising
around town.

Knowing my desires ... I built up something that made it happen

It turned out Great for me ... But ... I know others have different
desires ... so ... What I did may not be ... Great ... for them.

Now ... Lets talk some more about ........... Gas Consumption

Our cars work ... Like they work ......... Plain & Simple

A car with a good Closed Loop tune and 42# injectors
or
A car with a good Closed Loop tune with 19's and a FMU

They both are only gonna use the amount of gas commanded
by the pcm when in "Cruise Mode" cause during this driving
condition ... the pcm is controlling the most efficient use of fuel.

Each above example should get pretty good mileage

Of course ... None of us just putts around town driving
like a little ole granny all the time so your average
values for gas mileage is gonna be much less.

As for drivability ..........

I got no concern for any one of the above talked about
combo types as I have the good fortune of being able
to tune as needed for each application.

I know that is not the same for all
but
Hey ... the option is there for all if money and time is invested

Summing up here ...........

Again ... Its all about application

If I wanted mega dyno hp/tq values to come on here and brag about
or
If I had a focus on 1/4 mile strip performance ....
I'd definitely consider a centri blower or a turbo

Grady

 

[m0l0]

:OT:


S351Saleen77's Man your car is completely awsome , i have that 5.0 issue and let me tell you your car is absolutely awsome


:OT: /mode off

 

[5spd GT]

Another quick note as has been stated with those with h/c/i. My custom cam was ground for a '110% daily driver'. That is how I stated it to Ed Curtis. My car pulls great in 5th gear at 2,000 or above rpm. I have no problem passing cars, with ease. It has the same or possibly more torque than the stock engine did at low city rpms and just grows as it gets higher in the rpm.

 

[S351Saleen77]

The one thing I forgot to point out with a supercharger is that you don’t want to hit the factory rev limiter. It pulls out fuel which is not good. This is how head gaskets get blown. Get an ignition system that pulls out timing or spark.

 

[S351Saleen77]

:OT:


S351Saleen77's Man your car is completely awsome , i have that 5.0 issue and let me tell you your car is absolutely awsome


:OT: /mode off

Thanks!

 

[S351Saleen77]

I started the previous thread, and reading this thread gets me thinking about a vortech again. All the points you made are valid, and its tempting to bolt up a vortech and call it a day, but the stock longblock h/c/i is very restrictive. Putting a supercharger onto the stock engine is like blowing really hard into a straw to fill a balloon. Sure it gets the job done, but there are more efficient ways to do this, such as expanding the diameter of the straw. This applies mainly to the goal of sub 300rwhp performance, if my goal was bigger numbers, Id no doubt go with a centri (on top of a mild h/c/i) rather than go with a bigger h/c/i. What Im trying to convey is, the reason we modify our 5.0s is to increase the lack of power ford gave us from the factory, and the logical way to do this is to replace what ford gave us with more efficient equipment. Once you establish this base, forced induction just multiplies the fun The reason I considered a charger in the first place was so that I could retain stock behavior, but get a good boost when the loud pedal is stomped. What Ive learned is that a mild h/c/i retains stock behavior as well, and actually increases the overall efficiency of the 5.0, and this is why Im leaning towards that route.

I am glad you started this whole thing. I also liked the 3 things you wanted, 300hp, driveability and gas mileage. If you hadn’t said Drivability AND Gas mileage I wouldn’t have even responded. These were the 2 MAIN points I was trying to get across.

In 1987 when Ford came out with the new heads for the 302 things changed for the better. The H.O. roller camshaft is also no slouch. These 2 things make it light years ahead of old 60’s and 70’s 302’s. Then to top it off the fuel injection!

So yes they don’t breathe as well as the aftermarket BUT they are more efficient at cruise rpm, which is another point I’m trying to make. Some of today’s cars have variable cam timing, why? Because when you increase duration you gain more top end, decrease and you gain bottom end, so you can have both. This was the point I was trying to make. It doesn’t seem like people were getting it. You can’t change the duration without giving up something somewhere, that’s why I mentioned 60’s cars. Big duration cams needed high rpm cruise. Look in a cam manufacturers catalog and the more duration the higher the cruise and the lower the rear end gear they recommend. This is nothing new. So when you put in a bigger cam than stock you loose a little mileage at cruise rpm. So you compensate with gears. With overdrive 5th gear that they didn’t have, the cruise rpm comes way down and a bigger duration cam is not as efficient as stock in my opinion. What I am saying here has been proven time and time again.

So by adding the H/C/I yes it is more efficient higher up but you will give up something down low and the key word of drivability comes in. We already had one guy say that he was tired of the shaky idle. We had another say after the H/C/I his car hardly ran without tuning. By bolting on the Vortech kit as it comes when you start it up it idles the same, nothing changes. You still have drivability like stock. This is 2 out of 3 things you asked for that I think a Vortech will do very well.

We had one guy with a Kenne Bell who had problems, and right away I get “See I told you so” Well a Kenne Bell IS a different animal than a Vortech. Full boost at 2200rpm when the load is very high on a engine. Everything has to be right on or you will detonate and blow head gaskets. I wasn’t about to go into his problems…who knows there are many variables? I had a Kenne Bell and didn’t blow a gasket. A Vortech adds boost as the rpm goes up and the load lessens on a engine. Totally different animals.

One says that you can’t make power and not use more gas so you will get worse mileage. So I try to explain that with the Vortech kit and the FMU you are not changing the cruise fuel, you are not adding more gas. If you have a custom chip and someone adds fuel there that can change. Then he comes back saying that he has no FMU he has a custom tune and 42lb injectors. 220%larger than stock! Who knows what the fuel tables are at cruise rpm and engine load now?? He also drives with a heavy foot and gets 5mpg less. Well yeah, makes sense to me! But to say that with a Vortech you will loose 5mpg at cruise is not accurate.

So then the whole thing of how it takes mass power to spin it comes out that’s why you can’t get good mileage. Well it doesn’t take much to spin it at that rpm with NO load. When you spin it by hand yeah it feels tough, the impeller spins 3 times or so faster than the pulley. It’s like turning a bicycle over putting it in a high gear and turning the pedals. Yeah its hard to get going but once its there it takes much less power to maintain. Physics. Now everybody argues with that…….yes it takes a lot of power to spin under full load boost at high rpm, but it more than makes up for it in power output.

The H/C/I has many choices If you mix and match there are hundreds of possibilities. The Vortech kit is one choice everything matches. But I get a bad time for saying that also!!

I also get the “This is modern fuel injection and you can have bottom end also” Well the long runner intake and sequential injection are the reasons why you can have it over a manifold and carburetor. It does make a huge difference, Yes I agree. But I’m saying that when you change the H/C/I you will give up something. It’s like they think I don’t know about fuel injection. In 2000 when I bought my Saleen it had a DOS based DFI. DFI is a stand alone system no Ford computer. I converted it to the windows based Version in 2003. I also put in a Wide Band 02 with it. I can put in target air fuel ratios and it will tune itself to them. I can change pulse width of injectors, I put in cam specs and it times the injectors to them. I have data logging. On my fuel maps that I can tune while running you actually have less fuel at higher rpm than at the torque peak. There is less of a load at higher rpm’s; this is why a Vortech with boost coming on with rpm is much more forgiving than a Kenne Bell.
I had this 5yrs ago, $4000+ of fuel injection. So yes I do know something about fuel injection.

I am trying to point out to people that a Vortech kit will do those 3 things. I’m trying to help.
It seems all I get is why this can’t be done, yet the people saying it have no experience with one or they have completely different setups than what I am talking about.

Anyway I hope somebody who is considering which route to go will think about everything that has been said. I don’t mean to piss any of you off. I’m trying to get my point across and I feel like every time I make a point somebody shoots it down. I hope this at least made you think about some of the things I said.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I agree... get both, stroke it, add some juice.... call it a wonderful day.

I still haven't hooked up my N02 yet.......

 

[5spd GT]

The only thing I 'gave up' with the h/c/i was in my wallet, just like if I purchases an S-trim kit with all the 'accessories' it needs.

Besides 'giving up' money (like the supercharger as well) I gained gas mileage and power - I would venture to say from idle-6000 rpm. I know from 2,000 rpm and up for sure without a doubt.

I have a new valvetrain and top-end and it looks better too with less clutter.

Now if I only wanted to spend money for a supercharger too put on top of that, the thought just excites me

 

[Pokageek]

"Thats not True at all, I feel my car as stock strong from 1500 or even more torquey than stock, i definetly didnt loose any torque down low, and i havent changed gears i am still with the 3.08 so know what i am talking about."

So, there goes the myth about H/C/I losing power down low. If done right, there is no loss down low.

 

[m0l0]

"Thats not True at all, I feel my car as stock strong from 1500 or even more torquey than stock, i definetly didnt loose any torque down low, and i havent changed gears i am still with the 3.08 so know what i am talking about."

So, there goes the myth about H/C/I losing power down low. If done right, there is no loss down low.

Yes indeed and let me describe this , I DIDNT loose any low end but gained, but yes indeed the torque band did get up, You know that kick in the butt you normaly feel on a stock arround 3500, its now multiplied at arround 3800-4500, that must be my highest torque peak, but the 3500 must be the same (maybe a litttle more than stock).

Down TQ will depend on the cam+intake

On my fuel maps that I can tune while running you actually have less fuel at higher rpm than at the torque peak. There is less of a load at higher rpm’s

I´ve had heard this on other forum that lowering time/leaning AFR ( or both) on the highest point will increase TQ, please can some with more experience chime on this matter? cause i will not try to lean my tune just to give a shot at 5500+ rpms


And all this MPG/Tuning matters can be solved with real data, watching my AFR with the Wideband thats how i have effectively increased my MPG to levels i have never seen before on this car, i know exactly where i will go from CL ( 14.7) to OL, on the speed/load on the 5th gear.

I must admit that i bought this Wideband with the main purpose of WOT tuning, but its whole functionality has extended to save many bucks on my constant HWY trips.

 

[S351Saleen77]

"Thats not True at all, I feel my car as stock strong from 1500 or even more torquey than stock, i definetly didnt loose any torque down low, and i havent changed gears i am still with the 3.08 so know what i am talking about."

So, there goes the myth about H/C/I losing power down low. If done right, there is no loss down low.

I would love to see dyno pulls to back this up. I don't belive that a cam with more duration, bigger heads, and intake will make more power than stock. I have seen it in lots of tests. The last one was in a magazine....oh wait it didn't work out to what you guys want so that test is no good! It could never happen right??

So one guy says it it must be true right? O.K. increasing duration, bigger ports with lower velocity at low rpm make more bottom end torque at 1500rpm?????????

It must be true......I have no idea what I'm talking about......

 

[S351Saleen77]

One more thing to think about..........

SALEEN put Vortech's on Foxbody 302's.

He put them on S351's that already had Heads,Cam,Intake, Headers, Borla exhaust,etc..

Why????

He sold them with a warranty....Why??

Why would he do this???

THINK about it for awhile.

I would Love to hear your thought's on it!

Well ???????? What no takers on this one????????

Why on earth would he put on a hard to tune head gasket blowing thing and offer a warranty???

 

[gcomfx.com]

Not to sound rude, I'm trying to stay out of this thread as best I can. You might have better results in the future if you would SLOW DOWN a bit. We all love fast cars, but people that spout off a book, followed by another book, then another book online creates a "skimming" response by readers... if even that much. Try posting once, let 3 or 4 respond, then make the next point. Back to back posting won't get you the results you want. Just my personal experience. You'll notice I'm the final poster in MANY threads. Consider me a thread killer if you will.

 

[final5-0]

Not to sound rude, I'm trying to stay out of this thread as best I can.

Come on now Paul

That ain't no way to have fun

Besides ... We gotta have somebody on here to explain all about ..........

THE JUICE :Word:

You'll notice I'm the final poster in MANY threads. Consider me a thread killer if you will.

Its so good to see somebody else point this out

on account of ................

I thought I was the reason for the death of many threads as well

Grady

 

[gcomfx.com]

I swear you search my name on here... 80% of the threads I post in or start... I'm also the last one listed in the thread.

As far as juice - With 197,000 miles on a bone stock engine, I was adding 9MPH from the 1000ft to the 1320 on a little 125 shot of zex with my turd AODE car. That comment should be enough.

Good Gas mileage - check

Good drivability - check

300hp - check

Plus it's the cheapest option so far.

 

[Pokageek]

JUICE RULES!

 

[m0l0]

Well ???????? What no takers on this one????????

Why on earth would he put on a hard to tune head gasket blowing thing and offer a warranty???

Well obviously on their time they were new engines new seals,gaskets etc. ont that case you can offer warranty done properly


But if you go right now with any 100k miles Fox or SN whatever to Saleen and ask him not to even change the headgaskets, ask him to pump 8+lbs and ask him for a warranty i guess you will be door closed on that moment on your nose


H/C/I + BOOST RULES

i guess i am right now since i dont have boost

I would love to see dyno pulls to back this up. I don't belive that a cam with more duration, bigger heads, and intake will make more power than stock. I have seen it in lots of tests. The last one was in a magazine....oh wait it didn't work out to what you guys want so that test is no good! It could never happen right??

So one guy says it it must be true right? O.K. increasing duration, bigger ports with lower velocity at low rpm make more bottom end torque at 1500rpm?????????

It must be true......I have no idea what I'm talking about......

All right i am running my mouth since i dont have dyno charts, how ever i know perfectly how my car was felt at 1500 before and after HCI, but since you are so sure , show us a good done HCI vs Stock dyno pulls , and show those low end tq loose you are saying.

Dont take none of this personal, but i cant understand why a well balanced HCI would loose low end tq.

 

[99FiveOh]

I have actually read that numerous times in MMFF and 5.0, you can't have both, unless you use a power adder.

I saw an intake shootout done in one of the magazines and the stock one ruled for a couple thousand RPM then the rest took over. The closest off the line torque maker was the TFS street heat and it only bested the stocker by a small bit, so small they actually said it is a bad choice of stock replacement intake!

Stock equipment is always better for that first couple hundred RPM, but seriously, who launches their car at idle? 1500-6500 H/C/I kit is just the ticket and I doubt seriously a "human" could feel the small loss of torque in those few hundred RPM before the combo really comes to life, at that point we can definately feel the difference!

 

[Pokageek]

My street heat was a HUGE improvement over stock no question! Plus the stocker died out at 4200 and the street pulled harder and further to 5000.

I have an opinion that lots of times these" comparisions" are rigged for/by the advertisers.