Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by NewStangSmoking, Apr 2, 2009.
This is good advice.
the car isnt supposed to smoke when its brand new bottom line. If it did, then every new car would smoke and we would be polluting like crazy ( in addition to co2). Something is wrong and they should fix it. If not, then they are a ****ty dealership and Ford should be embarassed.
People I know that I have talked about this with, all ask the same questions, "Did you get on it." I just laugh...I guess if 50 mph or 2000 rpm is "getting on it" then the answer is yes. But seriously, we've not even come close to "testing" the new GT and never intend to.
Great thought! I might have to move to CA for a short time, LOL, as Missouri has no emission tests.
Marc, did you mean 9000 miles?
I'm back from the dealership and while I did record the conversation, it's probably easiest to give you a breakdown, starting with the printout they gave me.
This might not mean anything to you guys, but I'll type it out anyway.
2009 Mustang 2 dr coupe GT. Engine 4.6L 3V SOHC. Transmission 3650 5 speed manual. Axle code CG. Engine calibration 9ZF2G80A
Symptom Code Information
401000 - Engine oil system concerns
Special service messages - 20704 (that is the code the computer pulls up when they hooked my car up to it)
2005 - 2010 Mustang 4.6 3V - Blue smoke on cold start. Some 2005-2010 Mustang GT's equipped with 4.6 3V engines may exhibit a puff of blue smoke on startup without associated oil consumption complaint. This may be due to customer drive pattern. Quick shutoff after start followed by a soak period, is a major contributor. Customers should be advised to allow the vehicle to fully warm up prior to turning the key off to eliminate/reduce the condern, and that no repair is necessary. Effective date: 3/10/2009.
My rebuttal, which I brought up at the dealership.
First, I would not call it a "puff" of blue smoke. That video link that is posted is exactly how it looks when it starts. If it is smoking when I'm driving, I don't know, since I can't see the tailpipes. It is not billowing smoke, but I don't know if it is smoking on shifts or at stop signs/lights.
Second, now that I have a better idea of what they are calling my "driving pattern," I can say that I NEVER have driven in this manner. There is no place that I can drive that would not allow the vehicle to fully warm up. The only exception might be if I had some running to do in town and stopped at a few different stores, but the engine would have been fully warmed up before I got to those destinations, and would not have time to cool down between stops.
Third, I told them that my car does have "associated oil consumption" as it is 1/2 a quart low. She said that it is not low, and that it is in the safe zone and that they don't always fill the oil at the factory.
So, she advised me to bring it in at 3000 miles for an oil change and they will check how much oil it has used. She also told me that I could bring it in at any time to document the oil levels. I told her that I didn't just spend $32,000 to spend all my time at the service department.
Now that I have the car back and all my paperwork from the glovebox, I can look into my options a little more. I did not even ask to speak to the service manager today...that's a long story, but the short of it is that my granddaughter was with me this morning and I didn't think I could maintain my "cool" if I had to speak to him. I just recorded the conversation with the "advisor" and decided to get home and discuss things with my husband to see what the next step might be.
One other thing that I want to bring up. We actually started eyeing this car back in Nov. of last year. My husband wanted it then, but winter was coming and I did not want to give up the F-150 4X4 at that time...I told him if he still wanted the GT in the spring, then we would talk about it. We eyed this car for months, but it was ALWAYS parked in a gravel lot towards the back of the dealership. It was never up front with the new cars, and never with the other new Mustangs. I actually asked about it, and was told they didn't have room to park all the cars up front and they just rotate them. But never did I see any other GTs in that gravel lot, and never did I see the one we bought parked up front.
Hindsight -- 20/20???
Does anyone know what the protocol would be if a dealership gets a new car from the factory and it is smoking? Or what if the car came in as a trade from a different lot? If the dealer is aware of a problem, can they just send it back to the factory, or are they stuck with it? Is the best they can hope for is for some other lot wants to trade and they are finally able to wash their hands of it?
I know that a dealer wouldn't want to sell the car locally and upset one of their customers, and that's what is making me think that they were aware of it. I specifically asked them if they still had the white GT, and at first I was told 'no.' I asked "are you sure, it's always parked on the back lot." He said "let me check" and came back and said they still had it. Also, the salesman was brand new...only been there a few days. So he probably wouldn't have even known if they did know the car had problems.
I also want to make a correction about the purchase date. We bought the car on 3/16, not the 3/23 -- as I said, all the paperwork was in the car, and the 23rd stood out in my mind because that is when we did all the licensing and stuff. So we have had it for almost 3 weeks, not 2 weeks. Not that it makes a difference...just wanted to correct that earlier error I made.
People like that are what guns are made for!!!! he's BS'ng you big time!
Easley, are you referring to the part I typed in red? That is supposed to be directly from Ford Tech Service. In fact, I have a print out of it and the URL at the bottom is http://www.vrep.fordtechservice.dealerconnection.com/vdirs/oasis/oareq.asp
It won't come up for me, of course, because I don't have the proper permissions, but the point I'm trying to make is that the dealer/service dept. didn't just pull this out of their butts -- it is Ford Tech Service that is saying it is normal and not a repair issue. Supposedly this "warning" was just issued the week before we bought our car, but if it is all 2005-2020 GTs with 4.6 3V engines, then why was this not released until March 10th, 2009?
I just read through my contract, and we agreed to arbitration. I feel strongly that an arbitrator would side with us, however we relinquish all rights to any future lawsuit, class action suit, right to appeal, and most importantly, right to a "discovery phase" which would give me information about how prolific this problem is. My other option is the lemon law, which as I have mentioned, doesn't do me any good at this point because I have to allow them 4 attempts to fix the problem, and they are not even attempting to fix the problem and are saying it is perfectly normal.
900 miles per quart is what Ford says is the maximum amount of oil consumption allowed. 899 miles per quart is abnormal. In my opinion, you will not be able to submit this under a lemon law because your car burns 1 quart in 1600 miles. I am not an attorney, this is just my opinion based on the exact same issue I had with a new Porsche Carrera that I purchased a few years ago. The car cost $85,000 and it burned one quart every 700 miles and it smoked like a old farm tractor. Porsche said that 1 quart between 600 and 1500 miles is the normal amount of oil consumption. I got tired of fighting with them so had the engine rebuilt at 4,000 miles by a independent European repair shop that a friend owns. Afterwards it burned 1/4 of a quart between oil changes and no smoke. I am not suggesting that you should rebuild your engine. My advice is be cool and try and reason with them calmly, I know it's hard. If it was me, I would want to park the car in their showroom at 40 MPH. The dealer holds all the cards at this point. All they have to do is say," sorry the Ford manual says 1 quart every 900 miles is considered normal". Get the Ford district manager involved thats his/her job, they want these issues resolved as quickly as possible. Even if the Ford warranty will not cover it, Ford budgets for "policy" funds like every other big manufacturer. I work for John Deere, we resolve customer complaints that fall outside of the warranty parameters by budgeting for policy considerations. If you were my customer at Deere I would certainly hear your case. I would want to see the oil consumption record before any decision was made though.
Listen!!!!! Don't take this sh!+! Take the car to a shop that does a tailpipe emissions test and take the results back to the dealer and shove it up their a$$es! You need to learn how to tell these guys how it's going to be. Don't accept this crap! You have a right to a good running car that DOES NOT SMOKE!
This really sucks that you're having such a bad experience with such a great car...
Grab the April 2009 issue of Road & Track magazine and flip to the back for the tech question section. Just happens to be an explanation of why some new cars blow blue smoke.
I'm not a service advisor and never have been. Although, I've rebuilt my own engines (years ago), and have owned new cars that smoked a bit, as well. I'm sorry your car is smoking more than you'd like, but as Marc has mentioned, it sounds like it falls within an acceptable range that Ford has outlined for its vehicles.
Again, all the more reason why I personally chose to add an oil seperator to my engine recently to prevent oil getting sucked through the intake manifold and burning off. Perhaps your cars piston rings or valve seals have not seated properly yet and you're getting too much blowby??? Or, perhaps the break-in period was roughly handled and the cylinder walls are scored allowing excess blowby???
What really sucks is that Ford put such a WIDE range for "acceptable" oil consumption. No way I'm adding oil to my BRAND NEW car evey 900 miles. That's TOTAL BS. That crap was written to avoid obvious engine repair and whoever came up with that BS should be hung upside down by the nads and left to rot.
If I couldn't get anything done legally, I'd just park it in the ghetto and leave the keys in the ignition.
Either way I wouldn't have it.
That is completely and totally unacceptable.
I am dealing with Ford's crap right now with the environmental...on my car when you put it on FLOOR it gives you air on FLOOR and DEFROST. Ford has a TSB that says it is normal, or course. I talked the dealer service manger into sellling me a new 2008 heater control for 10% over cost. Ford fixed the problem in 2008 silently but refuses to retroactively fix 2005-2007 cars. Anyway...not trying to threadjack here...my point is be firm with them and perhaps they will give you a solution. Ask the service or dealer owner if they would accept that if it was THEIR new car. Get them to look you in the eye. Sometimes a good firm face-to-face meeting can get you the results you want.
If that doesn't work, I would give them their four chances to fix it and then lemon-law it. Just keep bringing it back. Take it home and then schedule an appointment again for the next day. Repeat. Ask the dealer's manager their "address for service of process". That is legalese for where you send documents when you sue them. When they ask why you want that, tell them your attorney needs the address and leave it at that. It doesn't matter if you have an attorney or not...just say that and sometimes that gets them moving. Defending a lawsuit can cost them more than just fixing it.
See if they will allow you to trade the car for a different new car. Make it clear you do now want the car and that the ONLY thing that will make you happy is a different one.
I fear the only way to fix the car you have right now is an engine swap. It is true that the engine may not be broken in yet, but the amount of smoke you are describing seems excessive even during break-in.
That is my .02. Keep us posted.
Drive it 800 miles, drain a full quart out and take i backJ/K
My new 08 came with synthethic oil in it. Assuming yours does too, what if you switched to regular dino oil to help seat the rings. Then if that works, switch back at some later date. Granted Ford should fix this without you having to do anything. If they refused and lemon law for some reason didn't apply. I'd try the above. Just a thought.
as crazy as this sounds. it truly may be the only way to resolve this. The Ford dealer is lying to you because they do not want Ford spending the thousands it will take to replace the motor. And my bet is that they will not give in. You are either gonna have to call Ford themselves(This is what I would recommend) and they will take care of it or you are going to have to resort to tactics like this to get a new engine. Please understand that other manufactures sometimes have the same issue. I have a friend with a new AMG Merc that burned oil from day one. $100k car. They reluctantly replaced the whole engine after he went to the top and got a lawyer involved. Guess what? The replacement motor was just as bad. He ended up trading it in..
every engine burns oil(oil in the crosshatch from lubercating the rings will burn off) but no where that much....in this case sometimes you gotta be a di#*head to get things fixed...
I called Ford Customer Service hotline. I must say. . . they suck! I told the story, and was asked "...just what is it you would like us to do? How can we resolve this matter?" After several attempts at telling her that I wanted to know my next step - that I was not happy with the dealer's explanation of the smoke, and several more times of her asking me how they could resolve the issue to my satisfaction, I finally said, "I want my new car not to smoke!"
So . . . her solution was to tell me that she is not a qualified service technician and that she couldn't help me. I asked her who could help me, and she said the service dept. where I bought my car. I told her that was the classic case of the run-around -- dealer tells me to call them, they tell me to call the dealer.
So, I ended up calling another dealer about 25 miles from me (we have bought several new trucks through them) and talked to service there. They want me to bring it in on Wednesday and they'll look at it. I expressed my concerns over not having a replacement car and he said that they would take a quick look on Wed. and then talk to the manager about getting a loaner car when I drop it off for service.
He said that it is not normal for it to do what I described, and also said the excuse they gave me about it not necessarily being 1/2 quart of oil low because sometimes the factory doesn't fill it, is total BS. He said that before a customer is handed the keys to a new car, it goes through the service department and all fluid levels are checked, tire pressure, car wash, etc. He said they, and no other ford dealer, should send out a car that is not full on oil.
I'll keep you posted. Still trying to get a video. Our kitchen is being remodeled and everything is a mess -- just need to find the junk I need to convert and upload the video to the web.
I'd like to say that all dealer follow that Ford protocol when delivering a new car, but it just isn't true. Some dealers get by doing little or nothing.
My Dad just bought a new 09 Mustang Pony V6 in March and it wasn't even washed when delivered to him ... the windows inside had a film from sitting for months, the carpets full of dirt, not even full of fuel ... and of course he never was given the dealer checklist that you are suppose to review with the salesman when you buy it.
I truly hope this other dealer helps you!
Well, at least you found a different dealer that sounds like they may fix the problem.
That is absolutely incorrect!!! The Ford dealer is independantly owned from Ford Motor Company and would be paid by Ford Motor Company under warranty if Ford Motor Company OK'd the repairs. The Ford dealer has everything to gain by getting this repair OK'd by Ford Motor Company: 1) they get paid to do the work, and 2) they make a customer happy. That's a win-win for the Ford dealer.
The only reason the Ford dealer would not be willing to do this work would be 1) they don't believe Ford will cover this under warranty, or 2) they don't need the extra business and/or money. And I'm pretty sure most any Ford dealer could use the business and money these days.