CEL flashing, bad idle, severe misfire, P0302 P0316, compression test results

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by evolucion311, Aug 19, 2011.


  1. wmburns

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    Regarding the slop in the right hand timing chain, I want to urge everyone not to jump to conclusions. Why?

    The timing chain adjusters are controled by oil pressure. With no oil pressure, some slack in the chains is to be expected. Timing chain rattle is a well known issue on 4.6's. Tons of these motors have this issue and they run fine. It simply may be a question about where the motor has stopped as to why one side is tight and the other is not.

    For proof, try rotating the motor in a CW direction. Likey you will see the chains on both sides get tight and loose as the valves open and close.

    Note to say this can't be a timing chain problem. IMO, more tests are need. As as already been suggested, look of evidence of the timing chain hitting other things like the cover.

    From the vid, I can't see the condition of the timing chain adjusting shoe. That's the curved piece that applies pressure from the timing chain adjusters. I'm interested in seeing if the plastic wear surface is still intact. It may be necessary to compress the adjusters to get a good view.

    Note, do not rotate the motor once tension has been released on the adjusters.

    Obviously it's easier to see once the cover has been removed instead of viewing through the value covers as I first suggested.

    Is there any wear in the trigger wheel at the key way or on the crank key way? Should be able to see metal fatigue.

    Did you ever inspect the CKP sensor itself? Debris on the sensor? Does the magnet still work? Electrical connector clean and corrosion free?

    Note UD pulleys are known to impact the quality of the CKP sensor signal. The Steeda pulleys are some of the better ones. However, if the rubber crank damper has gotten hard, that can affect the quality of the CKP sensor. Part of me still thinks that a true hard failure with the CKP would show up on multiple cylinders (instead of favoring #2).

    The saga continues.
     
    #41
  2. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Well Burns you are right..... as I turn the motor clockwise the passenger side chain tightens up. The driver side chain doesn't really loosen so much as the pass side tightens.

    Verdict? What specifically do you need to see from the tensioners?
     
    #42
  3. wmburns

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    There is a plastic wear surface on the shoe. I want to know if it has worn down to the metal. Or look at the piston on the adjuster itself. Is it worn at an angle matching the timing chain?

    You haven't yet answered the question about the inside of the timing cover. Any evidence of damage?

    Do you have a FULL Ford service manual, wiring diagram, PC/ED manual?
     
    #43
  4. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Burns:

    I do not have a full Ford shop manual.

    I made and posted a video of the crank exciter ring here: CRANK RING

    I made a video of the inside of the timing cover (which doesn't appear to be damaged) here: TIMING COVER
     
    #44
  5. wmburns

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    Look at the inside timing cover around the crank shaft. I see evidence of the trigger wheel hitting the cover. See the circular marks around the cover? This may be where the wear/slop on the trigger wheel has come from. This may have also worn down the width of the trigger wheel teeth thus degrading the quality of the CKP sensor output.

    To me, it seems like there is a lot of slop on the trigger wheel. However, this is where the limits of my experience ends. I can not say if that amount of slop is going to cause an issue.

    On the flip side, given the symptoms, a good case can be made for the trigger wheel being the source of the problem. However, I can say that there was not that level of slop on the motor I have had direct experence with.

    Here's also were things get confusing. I do have direct experience with the timing shoes wearing through and the carnage it causes. For that reason, I would pay special attention to that.

    Knowing what I know now, if this were my car, would I put an new timing set on?

    That depends. In this case, we have a high mileage motor that is already significantly down on compression. If the timing shoes are in good shape, I could make a justification to replace the trigger wheel and CKP sensor and call it a day.

    IMO, this motor likely still has other issues.

    I still stand by the O2 diagnosis and recommendation to change the front O2 sensors. I'm still concerned by the high fuel pressure.

    Would you consider sending your fuel injectors out for cleaning and flow test? If so, consider injectorrx.com. I have had great luck with them. Much cheaper than new.

    Seems like a bunch of stuff to do. It might help to consider it maintenance due to the mileage. FWIIW, my 2000 has 170k miles and still going strong. However, it did get a heart transplant at 145K miles.
     
    #45
  6. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Burns,

    Thanks for the input.... thanks much! I will replace the crank sensor ring/wheel and will have another look at the timing cover following your remarks about it possibly hitting the cover.

    I'm not so keen just yet on sending the injectors off for cleaning but if I get the motor put back together and swap the O2 sensors and am still having issues then I will surely do so.

    I like your process of testing before replacement. I'll see if I can scam together a fuel pressure gauge to check the fuel pressure at the rail.

    I made an above posting about the FRPS holding a 25" vacuum without budging. Is this normal?

    Thanks to all who have contributed.
     
    #46
  7. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    these vids are hard to see they are to thin...looks like it might have been rubbing front cover...maybe a real nice clear pic of cover

    do you have the orig pulley still....
     
    #47
  8. wmburns

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    If the FRPS didn't hold 100% vacuum, it would be a problem. Remember that the purpose of the line is to index or reference the fuel pressure based upon the intake absolute pressure. This is called a delta pressure.

    So there should not be any vacuum leaks to the FRPS itself.

    I see the post from Hotcobra03. He thinks that the trigger wheel is not wide enough. This would give weight to the theory that the trigger wheel is hitting the inside of the timing cover and has worn down.

    I wonder why this doesn't happen on all 4.6's. What's keeps it from contacting the cover?

    If this were my car, I would be prepared to replace the CKP sensor if there is any evidence of metal bits around the magnetic end of the sensor. A case could be make to replace the sensor if a new trigger wheel did not completely remove the original symptom.

    Also double check that the crank shaft sproket has been installed in the correct direction ( making sure the flange faces forward).
     
    #48
  9. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    looking at cover again full size it looks like the trigger wheel has been banging the cover...i assume the lower pulley holds this ...his pulley might not have been all the way in or its to short..

    his trigger wheel shows shinny appearance on tips
     
    #49
  10. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    how about just a pic of trigger wheel front and back...where the pulley holds the wheel is should be a clearner look than the goldish oil color...but it should be smooth evenly..run you finger nail across shinny to colored area....any lip/groove feel?


    code listed wobble on lower pulley...loose by hand is a wobble of the pully...not seated is a wobble to next part in line..trigger wheel
     
    #50
  11. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    another thought,,the ud pulley if when installed was tapped with a hammer to start ,,the slightest nick could be causing the pulley not to fully seat,,or bolt is bottoming out before pulley is seated
     
    #51
  12. Rick 91GT

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    Also check the key on the crank, make sure is contacting all the items...look at the keyways for evidence of slop.
     
    #52
  13. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Burns, the timing cover has never before been removed from this car. I bought it with 19k miles on it and doubt very seriously that the engine was messed with before that. The wheel is stamped "FRONT" and this side was facing me when I pulled it out of the engine.

    I do not still have the stock harmonic balancer pulley.

    I installed the Steeda pulleys myself and put about 40k miles on the car with them installed. I never had an issue prior to this. When i pulled the original CKP out of the car there was a tiny tiny tiny amount of metal shavings on the magnetic sensor. It was more the consistency of fine dust than any shards or anything large. I wouldn't expect a motor with 150k miles to not have worn at all.

    I already replaced the CKP with no effect on the misfire or the running of the motor. The codes persist.

    Here is a video of the wheel shot on my iPhone: WHEEL
     
    #53
  14. wmburns

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    From the vid, I can see wear in the key slot. The slop in the trigger wheel is obvious and speaks for itself based upon the symptoms.

    The wear on the inside of the timing cover is obvious.

    For the cost of a new trigger wheel, I would put a new one in a heartbeat. Since the CKP sensor is new, this will give a good base to re-test from.

    Unless you see evidence of wear/dry rot/cracking on the crank damper, IMO it reasonable to re-install it. Beside, you seem very adept at doing this work. So it won't be the end of the world to re-do the damper if it comes to it.

    Recommending replacing the front oil seal.

    Are you satisified that the timing shoes are not worn through? If so, it's reasonable to wait. Beside, replacing a timing set is not cheap and there's no evidence that it is the problem or that it will fix anything.

    IMO, you should feel good about the progress today. I think you are well on your way to solving a real puzzler engine problem.

    Great help from the other "stangnet" members!

    Hotcobra03, great point about the crank damper not fully seating. That could allow the trigger to move forward more than it should. That would also explain why this isn't a real common problem.

    PM sent.
     
    #54
  15. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    looking at keyway wear...i dont think its a tight fit when installing ,,, the pulley has to be the fault,,just hard to put finger on reason why...

    again i dont have 1 to say ,,not sure if 2v/4v are different or even when going thru youtube vids i seen some bottom timing gears were 2 piece and ours are 1 piece...

    so the lenght of the pulley vs stock was my thought or even if there was a shim that comes with pulley that wasnt installed????
     
    #55
  16. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Burns I am very satisfied to see that there is minimal wear on the cam lobes and that the valve train and timing components are clean enough I could eat off of them. I've put 130k miles on this car and have been religious about oil changes every 5k using full synthetic.

    Hot Cobra, interesting point about the crank pulley not seating correctly. I'm baffled, really. I put the crank pulley on exactly per Steeda instructions and certainly didn't use a hammer to drive it on. Rather, I used the long crank bolt supplied by Steeda to help seat the pulley and then re-used the original crank bolt. I don't want to start speculating in my mind but after doing some reading it is my understanding that the crank bolt it TTY one time use. Perhaps I should have used a new crank bolt?

    I will pick up a trigger wheel today and a crank bolt for good measure.

    Unfortunately, I have to make sure that anything I can do inside the timing cover and valve covers that I do in fact do before the engine is put back together. I don't want to buy gaskets a second time.

    About the shim hot cobra mentioned.... my kit did not come with anything other than the alt and water pump pulleys and the crank damper pulley which is all one unit and the installation long crank bolt.
     
    #56
  17. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    i would look at pully where crank bolt and washer were...if pulley wasnt seated all the way there might be sign on color difference at the end...this is pressed ....the bolt they supply to install was there a washer on it? like a fat thick 1? useing a thin washer could have damaged the pulley(nick)
     
    #57
  18. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Yes there is a washer, I reused the original thick washer.
     
    #58
  19. evolucion311

    evolucion311 Member

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    Here are some photos of the crankshaft, the trigger wheel, and the crank pulley. The crank pulley is TIGHT on the keyway as would be expected. The trigger wheel is a bit wobbly on the keyway.

    As requested here are the photos of the inside of the crank pulley and the crankshaft itself. Note the difference in color on the crank.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #59
  20. hotcobra03

    hotcobra03 Active Member

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    see all that orange stuff...where do you think the pieces fall?????oil screen....silicone will clog it...i found this out with mine,,had to pull motor to clean......

    its also enough to stop crank pulley from seating...how about a pic of the other side of crank pulley


    could be from pic but look at wear on chain


    the pulley gets a dab of silicone not the tube...lol

    [​IMG]
     
    #60

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