Crate Engine Builder wants me to go F.A.S.T. EFI over Mass-Flo . . .

Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by 70vert, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    70 vert, what engine combo are you going to put efi on? I keep getting online with the credit card out ready to buy ez-efi and then I think...hmmmmmm, why not wait a few months and see the new innovations in efi that come, frankly in the last two years aftermarket efi has come a long way, in the last 8 months the computers have become smaller and faster and I will bet the fast and powerjection will come out with even better systems, I know for a fact powerjection has extra wires in the harness for future features.

    Why not get it running and broken in with a carb and intake? I'm betting the next big thing will be direct injection sytems, The mass flo is a great system BUT the computer is 15+
    yrs old, think of how your old 486 computer with a 200mb hard drive and 16mb of ram compares to your new dual core with 500gb HD and 8GB of ram.

    The A9l while one of the best computers made at the time is getting older.
    I think it came out in 87-88.

    If I wanted to get the best system made money no object, the fast xfi is the best, you can have tuning of each cyl, traction control, control of just about every perameter you want. Accel makes a great system too, megasquirt leaps in tecnology as well.

    If I were going to spend the least amount of money per hp right now I would go the ez-efi, if forced induction was a possibilty and/or you want a self tuning Multiport with igniton control then I would buy the professional products powerjection 2 about a grand or more less than the mass flo and 2 grand less than XFI and it tunes itself or you can tune it. Ignition control is cool but unless it has a knock sensor and can automatically change it self which eec-iv can, once you dial it it is set for max power, you can do the same by curving a distributor or buying a programmable 6al2 or e-curve or mallory e fire distributor.

    In my case, I think the ez-efi will work best and a start retard on my ignition. Depends on what you want and how much you have to spend, on a street engine you can go a carb/intake for 400-500 bucks al the way up to 5000.00 for efi and if you figure out the hp per dollar difference you will be amazed at how much money you can waste. If you have a yates headed stroker street engine that you want to be perfectly streetable then XFI, if you have a 350-400hp 302 and you want streetable and economical a demon annular and good intake or powerjection3 or ez-efi for the money but the powerjection or ez-efi costs 1000.00-1500.00 over a mighty demon carb on the same intake mani........is it worth it to have it tune itself? To me being a plumber where I make between 90.00 and 500.00 bucks an hour its worth it.
     
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  2. bnickel

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    i still think you should go with the system you already had picked out, the Mass-Flo system. I'm sure Reenmachine can help you if get into trouble with it, though i doubt you will. yes it's a little bit harder to install the EZ-EFI system but i really would want something with an ignition control function, even the Holley pro-jection systems have that functionality for Pete's sake
     
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  3. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    Engine is a 408w-style, but with a bit lower compression, so about 400.

    htwheels, sorry, it was up there a little earlier, but kind of buried. I don't have the specs on cam, lifters, pistons, (shorter stroke and larger piston dish than a 408w) crank, etc, exactly. JE dished pistons, rod, crank will be forged, roller lifters, AFR heads but they haven't specified yet 185 or 205. MSD billet dizzy. 4.125 bore with 3.750 stroke which makes it about 400 but I'll just call it a 408 so as not to confuse it with 400m or the pontiac 400 when talking about it.

    bnickel, I hear ya, I hear ya. But after hearing about enough guys who are taking off their Mass-Flo kits and trying TBIs like the Boss, EZ-EFI, or even shelling out for the FAST XFI, I'm inclined to go with the builder's recommendation and no one has really said the EZ-EFI is frustrating or a piece of junk, quite the contrary. I'd rather have good and easy than perfect and complicated right now, and if the builder was having problems setting up the Mass-Flo right, I'd probably have the same.

    I'm not ruling out anything down the line, but after 5 years of waiting and working on it, and having a car that can stop and handle great, I just want it to GO. :D I hope to be able to make room in the garage for the old 302 that's coming out and rebuild and really tinker with that and watch how the SEFI aftermarket solutions mature. No idea what future project that engine would go in. :rolleyes:

    BTW, I called the builder and okayed the EZ-EFI provided they can make sure their choice of intake will clear the hood on my '70 if I do Spectre-type cold air tubes. Which is the next project . . .
     
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  4. bnickel

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    well ok good luck then but i really do think you'll be regretting not having the ignition control feature later on, then again maybe you won't and you'll be perfectly happy with the EZ-EFI. i had considered it at one time myself for my future long rod 351w but decided against it because of the lack of ignition control.

    i also have probably ruled out the mass-flo (and all the other port EFI systems too for that matter), mostly because it (they) costs so much but also because i want to use the stock air cleaner and not have the fuel rails exposed. i'm going for stealth here but i also want the ignition control feature too. more than likely i'll end up with the holley commander 950 pro-jection system since it has the ignition control functionality i want, it's pretty easily hidden under the air cleaner and it's not too damn expensive. i had considered the retrotek Boss EFI too because it all the features i want, plus it looks pretty much like a carb but it costs too much.

    ideally i would like to find an old barry grant VFI system or at least the throttle body and run it with a commander 950 computer and have a Dave's small body hei EFI feedback conversion done to a stock dizzy so everything will look more stock under the hood. here's a link to Dave's small body hei

    Dave's Small-Body HEIs
     
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  5. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    I dont think you will have a problem with the intake, an rpm,stealth and vic should fit a 70, if not get a set of RMP drop mounts. If you want ignition control......msd 6al2 programmable ignition.
     
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  6. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    RMP motor mounts already gotten, they like Super Vics

    These guys seem to like Super Vics, but I don't think they'll do it on this one because of my request for hood clearance. Got the RMP mounts already for the project! :nice:
     
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  7. bnickel

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    it's a little late now, but BG has just re-released the best EFI throttle body ever made, the VFI (venturi fuel injection) it basically is a carb main body and boosters, throttle plate and linkages with 4 injectors, TPS, MAP and that stuff. the idea is that the fuel is precisely metered with the injectors and then shot through the boosters so the fuel vaporizes better and stays in suspension better thus promoting better combustion.

    a properly tuned old VFI system, even with the not so great BG computer works very well but combine the throttle body unit with a better computer such as FAST, DFI, or commander 950, etc and the system has the ability to make more power than either a carb, TBI, or port EFI and better mileage too. when it comes time for me to swap over to efi i'm gonna use the VFI throttle body and a commander 950 computer system.

    http://www.barrygrant.com/bgfuel/default.aspx?page=63
     
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  8. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    cool, that would be great with the fast ez computer
     
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  9. bnickel

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    if the fast easy uses 4 ohm injectors, not sure what it uses so i couldn't say for sure.
     
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  10. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    I wonder what the pricing is?
     
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  11. ForceFed70

    ForceFed70 That's why they call it "dope"
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    Sounds like you've got your mind made up, but I would also choose the FAST system.

    Not sure why you think FAST=TBI.

    You seem to have the impression that Mass flo means it's easy. That's not the case. True, a mechanic that knows EECIV is going to be able to work on a Mass-flo system, but it's not as simple as you think. There are a lot of mechanics out there that go by the book when it comes to EFI. The book says to measure voltage at X wire, then replace part located in X location. Only a mechanic who truely understands the EECIV system will be able to easily adapt to Mass-flo, and such a mechanic would also be able to easily work on a FAST system.

    The beauty of stand-alone systems (beside the fact they have way more features, controls, etc) is that you can diagnose with your laptop. If a sensor fails, it shows up quite clearly... IE: your coolant temp sensor reads -20*F on a hot day.

    If you are set on "simple" than go with Mass-flo, if you want the best performance go with FAST.

    IMO, you are investing too much money in the adaptive learning thing. Yes, EECIV has it, but it's very primative and FAST probably offers something very similar. I know megasquirt does.
     
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  12. bnickel

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    the FAST EZ-EFI system is a TBI system and it does not have all the cool functions of the higher end FAST systems, it's a very stripped down system actually, it doesn't even have the ignition control capability of most other EFI systems, particularly the mass-flo system since it was the other system he was considering. IMHO, fast ez-efi vs mass flo i would have to choose the mass-flo system hands down. the fast ez-efi is meant to compete with the low end holley pro-jection systems and other low cost TBI systems.
     
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  13. bnickel

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    the VFI? if so Jegs has the 750 unit listed for around $850 or so. keep in mind that is just for the throttle body but you'd pay roughly that or even more for a pro-built carb from some of the big name carb builders.

    hmmm, ya know all of a sudden i'm thinking of combing the VFI tb with something like a ford ranger dual plug 4 cylinder computer just because....LOL
     
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  14. bnickel

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    let me introduce you to the fast ez-efi

    Carb-to-EFI Conversion Has Never Been EZer
     
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  15. ForceFed70

    ForceFed70 That's why they call it "dope"
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    Ahh, now I understand. I thought he was referring to the high-end FAST systems. I tend to agree, with you. I'd go MAss-Flo before the EZ-EFI if it was down to those 2 choices.
     
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  16. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    Heh, initial posters were doing everything to steer me away from Mass-Flo

    but now I'm hearing that I should have stuck with it. It kind of is too late now, and if I were Chris at Mass-Flo I might have a few words with the builder for starting me down the EZ-EFI road, as they are a Mass-Flo approved builder. There were a number of guys saying that they had seen lots of reports of Mass-Flo users never getting their systems to "run right", and cobra forums guys who had ripped off their Mass-Flo in favor of something else. These guys may have been unclear on the Mass-Flo concept and chasing peak HP figures with little concern as to driveability and real world conditions - i.e., bench racers or guys chasing dragstrip times, but enough reports that they gave me pause and led me to the cheaper solution.

    Nice to see that the VFI system is out and it works with the FAST computer. I'll wait to see what results people are getting with the VFI and it could be an upgrade to this in the future, but at $850 it's a pretty spendy upgrade. And I imagine I'll have all the power I need/want with the EZ. Technically, I agree the VFI is superior to EZ with the right computer.

    I agree that in a perfect world, controlling fuel/air and spark with the same computer is of course the way to go, but maybe what I'm hearing from builders and from those who had problems with the Mass-Flo, setting up Tweecers, perfecting a FAST XFI, (which the builder says is a ton of laptop set up but a fine system once it's done) etc., is that it might be easier to just separate the fuel/air computer from your ignition system and you have a little traditional control for tuning it with the dizzy. Just a thought. Since I am getting a warranty with the build, and they are pushing the EZ-EFI, I know who to blame if I have problems with the EZ. :D

    Hopefully I can get an ETA this week and when the whole thing is done, some dyno figures out of them to see what we end up with.
     
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  17. bnickel

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    i want it to be known that i tried to convince you to stay with the mass-flo in case there are any problems with the EZ-EFI.....that way i don't get blamed down the road too. LOL

    BTW, haven't seen you around the 69stang forums in quite a while, do you get over there much any more?
     
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  18. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    I'm predicting its going to work out real good, electronic timing control is nice but usually when its set to perfection you rarely if ever change it, if your using a knock sensor thats another story.

    There are plenty of add on ignition options like, start retard, step retard and fully programmable.
     
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  19. armand67Fstback

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    FAST EZ EFI

    I was wondering if there where any updates on the Fast EZ-EFI install? Had been following this thread since it is a subject interest, thanks.
     
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  20. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    I search every day on other non ford sites as well and pretty much everyone who is using it loves it.
     
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