DIY air to air intercooler on Kenne Bell for 92 LX

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by 92rohcp, Apr 21, 2009.


  1. Zero_chance

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    One question though, you say you were seeing NO intake temp reduction from the meth injection in one of the earlier pages.... ? Whats up with that? I was considering buying a kit for my setup after doing a lot of research and hearing nothing but good results, etc. But here youre saying it did nothing in terms of temp reduction. I understand the octane boost benefits but I was hoping for some reduction in temp as well...
     
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  2. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    The A2A has been done on a SN95 2 times that I know of since I did my DIY thread. Check the corral and search my user name my thread there is much more comprehensive and has pics of other guys who have done this project. You could do this its not that hrad if your patient and follow my DIY.

    As far as meth its a mystery as to why the pushrod KB motors don't get big temp drops. I saw maybe 30* and most other get around 35* some claim 60* but that is not the norm.
     
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  3. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    Dyno numbers are in and as usual Torque was king gaining 57 rwt and HP always trailing behind on the A2A KB setup with a gain of 35 RWHP for a total of 550 HP and 685 TQ. The meth came in at 5 psi with a 9gph nozzle after the blower and ACT sensor so the ACT temps don't reflect meth cooling. Total timing was 22 degrees and was only a marginal improvement over the first run at 20*???? ACT temps I mind you are not from the number 5 runner but rather my 05 slot style MAF in the 3" pipe which is in blow through configuration right before the meth injection and KB intake. ACT temps were 108 on the first run and went as high as 124. Ambient temp was a cool 65, but again remember these temps would be lower if the meth injection was recorded through the AIT sensor. I ran a very small custom made 2" 8 rib KB pulley and the lack of belt dust is evidence the 8 rib system is working and no belt slip was recorded on the data logs or dyno graph. With the 2" blower pulley and 7.5 inch crank I was maxing and more the rpm limits suggested by KB for the little 2.1 KB with a total of 22,500 rpm at 6k rpm.

    I ran the car on the Dyno and was watching my Engine speed through the Binary Editor programs data logger and some how the rpm stopped increasing on the program I was watching at around 5400 rpm. I new something was wrong as I could hear the engine spinning up higher and higher. I finally let off and when we looked at the dyno graph which was recording my engine speed as well it hit 6,400 rpm engine speed and blower rpm of 24,000 rpm.....OOOOPS. This put my blower way out of its efficiency range and max suggested rpm of 18,000 by KB. The funny thing is the A2A kept the ACT temps at 108* on that run, so it's working. I have heard that KB has tested them to 24K and mine confirmed it. Granted this was a mistake and I'm wasn't really trying to max it out. Anyway total boost was @ 16psi starting out and dropped of at 4k 1 psi and another at 4500k for a total of @14 psi at 6k rpm.

    I would have hoped for more out 3/5 psi gain from the last dyno session seeing that ACT temps were approx the same and total timing as well. Many would say run more timing since you had meth injection this time, but with a meager increase in power I saw from the first run at 20* and the second run bumped to 22* I saw no reason to add more.

    Again this is a street car with a mild street grind cam and small 170cc TW heads so in the end I can live with the numbers....well at least for now

    Time to lay this power down for real.....At the track.
     
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  4. Zero_chance

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    Man theres a lot of info on the other site. I made it through the first 13 pages hoping to see some pics of an SN95 set up this way with no luck. Unfortunately my work comp has slow net speeds. Hopefully Ill have better luck this time. Search didnt turn up anything either. This is hands down the best customization Ive ever seen someone do and the fact that other people have replicated it proves it wasn't a one shot or impossible deal. My biggest fear would be taking off too much of the manifolds in the cutting. Im assuming this works on the 1.5 and 2.1??
     
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  5. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    The cutting is easy outline with sharpie and scribe it then use the carbide steel cutters. I used a football and round shapped cutter. Go slow, the first cut is the hardest, once you cut in you loose all your fears.
     
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  6. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    I kind of thought that the outcome would be something like that. That said, I have a suggestion that goes against the arguments I made earlier (yeah yeah, I'm playing both sides). LOL

    Try opening up the intake tract. I don't recall what the sizes of the TB, spacer, and MAF, are that you're running but if they're 75mm then it's time to open up into a 80mm and see if there's a difference. You should see a 3 to 4 lb change in boost pressure if you're running a Flowzilla inlet. The bonus will be that you shouldn't see any rise is blower exhaust temps. If you do in fact, get the 3-4 psi increase that I think you should, then you could try once again to spin the blower a little faster and get the results you were looking for in this last test.

    My thought here, is that screws are not as saturated with air mass as they could be with the size of the current inlet.

    If I'm wrong, it's because the blower housing itself (namely the housing inlet), or the inlet side of the screw lobes ARE saturated and it's taking in all the air it can get past the forward portion of the screws. In other words, the portion of the screws that are exposed to intake air are saturated and not able to move air out the way fast enough to fill the entire length of the screws with air.

    Anywhoo... worth a shot if you wanna keep going. Swapping to the Flowzilla inlet was worth 4 psi all by itself on my combo. Going to 80mm TB and spacer was worth 2-3 more... all with no pulley swaps.

    I think the reason you're not seeing much effect with the meth (if I understand your post correctly), is because the over spin of the blower is largely diminishing the returns you're expecting from the meth. So... open the inlet and try the meth again.

    Just thinking out loud.


    By the way... you got pics of how you plumbed the water/meth in?
     
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  7. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    I've had a true 4" intake and 90mm T/B from the start no going bigger there. Also I have tried meth injection in every combination possible and psi level over the years so my experience across the board has shown at all levels and different injection location very little temp reduction on the KB pushrod motor. I need a less restrictive intercooler for starters and then a bigger twin screw.
     
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  8. Zero_chance

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    Finally found the SN95 with the A2A setup. Interesting way he did it and it seems like the only practical way it would work. Im wondering how good a quality water to air cooler would work as opposed to the air setup alone. I noticed the one guy with the Cobra kit car had it but he didnt have much info. Something to think about I guess, just picked up my block from the machine shop today and the KB comes tomorrow. Probably going to run it as is for a while before I worry about upgrading it further.
     
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  9. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    :nice:


    I wouldn't mind having a 2.8 or 3.1 myself. *sigh*


    That'll be your next project then 92. :D Get this:


    [​IMG]


    ... into a Fox. :D :D :D :D Over the top of a Holley Systemax lower intake.
     
    #229
  10. NIKwoaC

    NIKwoaC 中國製造

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    Honestly, I think there's power to be had with bigger heads and extensive porting on the lower intake (read- fully welded and hogged out). You're working that blower to the absolute extents of it's efficiency and pushing all that air through what I would consider to be mild 302 heads. TW 205s and some crazy ass porting on that GT40 lower, and I bet you pick up power without doing anything else with the blower.

    You might even be able to put a "slower" pulley back on the blower, bring the PSI down a couple notches, and make MORE power with a better flowing top end.

    I dunno, just a thought. That's where I'd be looking for power, anyway.
     
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  11. Noobz347

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    You'd think, but we're talking about a positive displacement blower. It's going to displace 2.1L of air per revolution regardless of what heads etc. you put on it.

    Yeah, there would be some gain but the more able that motor is move air, the lower the boost pressure is going to be.

    It's somewhat of a wash until you get a blower capable of moving more air.
     
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  12. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    I think there is some truth in both of you posts. I think without a doubt with 205 cc heads my peak power numbers would up maybe even hit 600HP. My lower GT40 has been worked by Tmoss not hogged out but ported well. And yes with the heads opened up the restriction would go down hence boost drop as I'm already seeing 2 psi drop from 4k to 6. The next move should be heads and yes maybe more lower intake porting.
     
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  13. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    Yeah, my 9 psi pulley on the stock motor made a whopping 3 psi on the new motor. Of course the entire combo including blower made a hell of a lot more HP with 3 psi than the OEM motor ever could at 9 (or even 12 for that matter).
     
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  14. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Not to mention you added 45cid to the engine giving the blower a much larger cylinder volume to fill. That'll drop your boost pressure like nothing else.
     
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  15. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    With my new stroker motor I added 60 cid and with the same top end and SC setup and pulley I made 17 psi with the 302 and 11 psi with the 363. Now I don't have a power comparison on the 302 with 17psi I only ran it on the Dyno with 14 psi and it made 423HP and 527TQ and that was a mustang Dyno. My new numbers from last week were on a Dyno jet and my psi level was not constant started with 16 until 4k and lost 1 psi and 4.5k another psi down for a total of 14psi for peak hp pf 550 and 682 tq. The last time I ran at 11 psi and made 515hp and 630tq and there was no boost drop.
     
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  16. Gearbanger 101

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    Dropping boost pressure at the top end is a classic symptom of a "running out of breath". My guess is that you've reached the limits of the 2.1L. I'm sure there’s slightly more to be had should you swap out the heads/intake, etc, but as far as blower capacity is concerned....you're probably at its maximum or close to it now. Spinning the blower any harder at this point is likely to result in minimal horsepower gains, with a measurable increase in torque gains, occurring lower in the power band.
     
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  17. NIKwoaC

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    That's not necessarily true, a PD blower is like any other PD pump- as you increase downstream resistance, pressure goes up and pump VE goes down. A fuel pump is a good example of this, as you increase fuel line pressure (via an adjustable FP regulator), the fuel pump will actually move less fuel than it would at rated pressure. You may already know this, but if you look hard enough, you can actually find volume flow rate VS system pressure graphs for fuel pumps.

    Again, this might be old news to you, but this may help out others- Here's an example of a flow VS pressure graph for a fuel pump I pulled off the google machine:

    [​IMG]

    Boost isn't what makes power, moving more mass of air/fuel into the engine is. Boost pressure is just a measure of mow much air/fuel you're trying to move and how much resistance the system has against moving that A/F. If he were able to increase VE, he might be able to reduce the blower speed and manifold pressure, and get it back into a more "efficient" range while still moving the same mass or more of A/F and make more power.

    But he IS at the edge of efficiency of the blower as it is, so who knows. :D
     
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  18. 92rohcp

    92rohcp Member

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    Thanks again guys all good info. 205 heads are next, when????? but that will tell me more about my next move.
     
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  19. 2000xp8

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    I agree, at this level, it's just going to be swapping Aspirated power for Naturally aspirated power.
    I've seen it done on an engine that had gt40x heads that went to afr 165's.
    With both sets and an S trim the car made just over 500rwhp (same dyno but at least a year apart).
    Difference was that the car made like 2lbs less boost with the 165's.
     
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  20. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    I don't disagree that a set of 205s will make more power. What I think would help most to go along with that though, it a new cam! :) Get with one of those high dollar cam genius' like Ed Curtis (or someone like him) with your setup and let him select a cam that will accept every last ounce of boosted intake pressure while exhausting all the spent mixture as efficiently as possible.

    Nikowa... I get what you're driving at about the actual boost PRESSURE being a parasitic by-product but what we're dealing with is the LIMIT of this particular positive displacement pump. I don't think we're as concerned with the final boost pressures here as we are in using the boost pressure as a reference for the end-of-the-line for the blower's ability to make power. 92 has found that limit so now we're brainstorming the next step to making more torque and HP to continue the quest for the ultimate street terror! :D

    Hell... he may end up with a small block Ford at the end of this journey, sitting underneath a 2.1L KB making 6 psi and 800 HP! LOL :nice:

    Ohhhh.... the timing you could run in that circumstance with his air-to-air cooler. :eek: :D
     
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