DO you ice your intake after runing at the track??????

[bmo37]

Have you developed the skills to run back-back runs within a hundredth or so of eachother given equal track/weather conditions?

Have you ever put your hand on an upper intake that has been iced with a garbage bag full of ice (say 5+ lbs) on a hot summer day?

Have you ever compared that to an upper intake that was not iced or cooled in any way? The temperature difference can easily be ~200 degrees on a typical summer day. The ~18" or so of runner length when frigid have a profound affect on the incoming air temperature.

I am a consistent enough driver to witness the HP advantage of icing, roughly a solid mph on my car, easy 10 HP.

Have you ever dyno'd your car even? Ever do a pull after a 30 minute cool down, with ice, and then one off the street at full temperature? No? lol.

N20 sprayed on an intercooler has a similar effect. Let me guess, you've never witnessed that on a dyno either?

man now were getting 10hp from icing an intake (welcome to the land of make believe), and nos when heated it breaks into nitrogen and oxygen the increase in oxygen is what makes the car go fast. Tell me what that has to do with icing and intake and how thats similar? . I'm not disputing the fact that colder air makes more hp, but the air itself has to make hp. You say ice an intake on a summer day well lets say 90 degree temps, you cold ice it all day long the air entering the intake doesn't stay long enough in the intake to be affected by its temp.

And yes I dynoed my car before i changed my left sock and after and I picked up an extra 10hp each time, just like you get an extra 10hp from icing an intake.

 

[93-ex-chp]

does the formula PV=nRT mean anything to you? Solve for temperature and the number of moles (molecules) in a given volume is directly dependent on temperature.

And it's not 90 degrees for the upper intake in the summer. Try closer to 200-240 when running in the summer, possibly a little hotter. I have measured it, have you?

When properly iced, you can get the ENTIRE upper intake assembly to sit at approximately 35 degrees, nearly 200 degrees of temperature difference.

Of course the convection currents do not completely cool the air to the 35 degrees, but it certainly gives the incoming air greater density, more oxygen, more power.

Call me a ricer all you wish, I understand the chemistry of nitrous (and use it on my car), and I understand the basic chemistry of the gas law.

I will be the guy running just a little bit faster than the person with the identical setup as me and he, like you, can point and laugh and call me a stupid ricer all they wish.

 

[bmo37]

does the formula PV=nRT mean anything to you? Solve for temperature and the number of moles (molecules) in a given volume is directly dependent on temperature.

And it's not 90 degrees for the upper intake in the summer. Try closer to 200-240 when running in the summer, possibly a little hotter. I have measured it, have you?

When properly iced, you can get the ENTIRE upper intake assembly to sit at approximately 35 degrees, nearly 200 degrees of temperature difference.

Of course the convection currents do not completely cool the air to the 35 degrees, but it certainly gives the incoming air greater density, more oxygen, more power.

Call me a ricer all you wish, I understand the chemistry of nitrous (and use it on my car), and I understand the basic chemistry of the gas law.

I will be the guy running just a little bit faster than the person with the identical setup as me and he, like you, can point and laugh and call me a stupid ricer all they wish.

show me where i called u a ricer, now your making up stuff that i never said. Your point even further proves mine saying that ok 200 degree intake and your going to drop it down to 35 degrees now, with ice. I don't care if you have the intake -120 below 0, if the air temp that is entering it is humid and hot the intake can't affect the incomming air enough to change it, its not efficent enough to chill the incoming air. Show me an intercooler that works by just cooling the outer part of the box, not the internal fins (i'm looking for a coreless intercooler) Tell me how long does air stay in the intake, long enough where it can change its temp, i don't think so were not talking about a freezer here where the air is trapped sitting in a sealed area.

 

[93-ex-chp]

It works, is dyno proven, and one could easily install a thermocouple in the IAT sensor (lower intake next to #5 runner on fox cars) to prove it, but please, don't ice your intake for my benefit.

 

[Azul93GT]

... Show me an intercooler that works by just cooling the outer part of the box, not the internal fins (i'm looking for a coreless intercooler) ...

I don't think anyone is suggesting that an intake manifold can be as efficient as an intercooler, only that a cool intake manifold is better than a hot intake manifold.

 

[bmo37]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that an intake manifold can be as efficient as an intercooler, only that a cool intake manifold is better than a hot intake manifold.

Well a few on here keep bringing up intercoolers and that its the same as icing an intake, which i say isn't even close, and my point is that the air is inside the intake for a split second that temp has no adverse effects on it.

Plus there is a physics explaination, I actually did an experiment in college with thermodynamics, but can't find my physics book right now to find the exact experiment. You've got a few variables here, ice, heated aluminum and heat paint, and finally air, The amount of ice and time needed to transfer its cooling energy through all the mediums into the air is beyond what actually happens in a cumbustable engine.

 

[what_stanger?]

i'm sorta of nuetral in this topic.... i never do this because it takes lot of time and is messy, and just doesn't give you that much more...

as for the "tenth" decrease, thats not always true...

if you car runs 9.80s, and you ice the intake, what do you think it'll do? nothing.
if you run 18.00s, maybe you'll see a bit, only if you let it sit there for a while....

if you make a run, at full operating temp, and then get in a staging lane, and ice the intake for 10 min, i don't think it would cool the intake manifold down enough to actually change the temp of the air coming into the engine...

some of those 'gains' you guys noticed could have been from 60' times, shift points, or the time it takes to shift...

a BETTER way to compare would be what you're trapping, each time....but that again has many variables..

as for you putting words into bmo's mouth about intercoolers not working...learn to read, idiot.

 

[rx7speed]

Rx.....so you've got your RX-7, and you're a member on a Third Gen Camaro AND a Mustang board?? Haha just messing with ya man...I thought I recognized your name from Third Gen.org

yeah I am a member there
but who are you?
don't remember your name from TGO

 

[rx7speed]

man now were getting 10hp from icing an intake (welcome to the land of make believe), and nos when heated it breaks into nitrogen and oxygen the increase in oxygen is what makes the car go fast. Tell me what that has to do with icing and intake and how thats similar? . I'm not disputing the fact that colder air makes more hp, but the air itself has to make hp. You say ice an intake on a summer day well lets say 90 degree temps, you cold ice it all day long the air entering the intake doesn't stay long enough in the intake to be affected by its temp.

And yes I dynoed my car before i changed my left sock and after and I picked up an extra 10hp each time, just like you get an extra 10hp from icing an intake.

he didn't say anything about N20 in the motor but rather spraying the intercooler with it

N20 has some very good cooling props when it goes from liquid to gas form it tends to take a lot of heat from the area around it. spray it in the motor or on the intercooler and it is going to draw heat from the air or metal around it cool stuff

 

[rx7speed]

rx7speed,

Why wouldn't intercoolers work, they do. You're on the right train of thought,
so what is the magic phrase missing here. You tell me, I know it, and I'll talk about it later. I just want to hear a naysayer describe why it works and why icing an intake works. The sensors cooling down and giving the comp. a 'cold' reading is the correct answer for the increased throttle response and for a .10 sec increase in the 1/4 mile. But icing an intake does not change the actual incoming charge air temp to decrease.

bmo37, right on bro - good job seeing the light!

I understand that a intercooler generally has more surface area when in referance to a intake manifold
but there are spots on the intake manifold also where dwell time does stand a little longer
the plenum is one though the surface area vs volume still isn't the greatest there

but still the air that moves past the IC, rad or whatever cooling device doesn't dwell in that area long enough to take heat off the object I would think by the way you are posting things
yes the medium inside the IC, rad or whatever might dwell in the system but the air around it doesn't so how does the air take heat away

why is it that when you move faster (meaning less dwell time yet for the air on the IC to cool) will allow for faster cooling?

why do ppl go for high flow water pumps if that would cause less dwell time of the coolant inside the motor?



I'm sure none the less there could be a small drop in temps
maybe not as much as some claim to be but I'm sure there is enough to cause a small power gain

sorry if this all is comming out bad but I have been up for almost 48 hours now so my mind is fried

 

[SHAGGY87]

Hey guys,

I think that we have all hit upon some things here that may make sense. I see enough responses that state a .10 decrease in 1/4 mile time does occur. I have stated erroneously that icing an intake doesn't work to help with a 1/4 mile time and in this case I may be wrong.... but I'm still right.

I can go through so may heat transfer formulas that prove that there is not enough surface area and dwell time to effect an incoming air charge in the intake formula that it would make some peoples heads spin around. Yes an InterCooler does work on heat transfer principles but the advantage of an IC is it's high amount of transfer area of medium contact relative to the volume of air passing by it the medium, plus an IC usually sits out in the nose of the car getting relatively cool air compared to the hot, compressed air running through it's core. Yes an IC can be air-to-air, air-to-water and augmented with N20 or dry ice, it works, because there is much more core contact area relative to the air that is flowing through it. No need to worry about dwell time with the high velocity air charge flowing through the IC due to all the surface contact area that is present.

But an intake manifold, especially with 650cfm of air rushing through it at full throttle, is just a lump of metal with passage ways that distributes air to the comb. chambers. Somebody along the way threw ice on the intake manifold to cool it, ran 1/4 miles and found it was quicker, and the next guy saw it, did it-worked, and so on, and so on..... But herein lies the problem, everybody is thinking that it cools the intake air, I beg to differ......

Ever noticed when you start a cold engine and run around in open-loop config. that the engine seems sharper, better throttle response, snappy feel through the rev. range etc. Then it warms up a little, reverts to closed-loop and that edgieness is gone, yet still runs strong, but different from a cold engine. I think that is what's happening..... Where are all the sensors for the comp. located that determine temperatures?.... IN THE INTAKE MANIFOLD AREA! How does the engine run when cold? Snappy, edgey (all of this due to a richer fuel mixture and a few other things that happen in open loop running)? How would this engine run if all of it's sensors were cold? Like a cold engine would. The bottom half of the engine may be warm but if my sensors are cold it's gonna mimic a cold engine and run in open loop, my warm combustion chambers can handle it and thus I will go faster!

See ya in the staging lanes, and my car may not be faster than yours but I'll have more ice on it than YOU!!

I Thought about all of this today while I was at the L.A. Auto Show. I saw a ton of intake manifolds and Intercoolers there!

 

[mike keirstead]

See ya in the staging lanes, and my car may not be faster than yours but I'll have more ice on it than YOU!!

You wont have more than me......lol

 

[OrLackThereof]

yeah I am a member there
but who are you?
don't remember your name from TGO

This is Nixon1...

 

[rx7speed]

but shaggy that doesn't explain the differences you might see on a carb car
only real experience I have with icing the intake though is one time after running hard I just figured I would try it and for once I spun the tires (old worn out 305 at this point) on a auto
but there could be other factors with that I admit
but ppl have been icing since carb days when the sensors couldn't make a differene since there wasn't a sensor
and if they ran a electric choke that would prolly just make things worse being it restricts airflow


also isn't it a lot of times the water temp sensor that makes it go into closed loop
and I'm sure not all of them are located in the intake manifold so that won't make it go into closed loop if the sensor is somewhere else



I would think even on the IAT sensor you would want to isolate it from the intake manifold that way you are reading air temps not the temps of the intake manifold itself since they are prolly going to be two different temps
so if that being the case icing the intake shouldn't have an effect of the IAT sensor unless air temps changed

still though what about cooling going up when speeds go up
that would mean for less dwell time of the air around the IC which should mean less cooling
even though you have more surface area to get cooling to go through thre is less dwell of the air at 20mph vs 80mph
so why does it cool better?




and with exhuast systems how is tit that they get warm as hell if they do not dwell inside the pipes?

if anything exhuast gasses should move quicker then the intake and yet the surface area can be close to the same sometimes even less then the intake tract


also with tlaking of CFM of air that shouldn't be the issue
650cfm of air through a 2" id pipe vs a 8"id pipe is going to have a different velocity between the two


I have to say though this debate at least is cool
nobody has turned on one another and started being rude


nixon1 I know you now

whats up man
have AIM?

 

[MustangPunk302]

If it works for you nice do it some more then. If it doesn't work for you, or you've never tried it and you think it's placebo, great... No need to resort to childish tactics that "some" have.