Dyno Comprison LS1 vrs 5.0 Combos

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by final5-0, Nov 11, 2007.


  1. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    One thing I have noticed, for some dyno guys they have a fan blowing in front of the car, to help cool the cars down. However, I do not think it would be enough air pressure to utilize the ram air system. But then again, not all fans are created equal.

    The ws6 and SS got a little different treatment. If I recall, the exhaust is slightly less restrictive on those cars, and I want to say that some SS's got a lid and the less restrictive cat-back too.:shrug: I may be getting that confused with the less restrictive manifolds that came in the later years.

    From the factory, the regular T/A and Formulas were rated at 310hp in the later years, and they gave the ws6 a 325hp rating.

    An interesting note, is the long 6.1" rod, which cuts down on rod angularity, and their first and second rings use a 1.5mm ring. Just for a comparison, Ford typically uses 1.59 mm rings, aka 1/16". Thinner rings = less friction.

    Just messing...:)
    #61
  2. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Yes, I heard that the LS1 oil pump hangs slightly out of the oil pan and sucks really hard allowing for more oil to get to the pistons but not too much and so that the crank does not dip into as much allowing for greater Flywheel HP numbers.
    #62
  3. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    Yeah, I have read a few positives on the oiling. It has a gerotor oil pump like most modern engines, that is crank driven (behind the timing chain if I recall). I am fairly certain the 5.0L oil pump has the gerator design as well?, just by looking at the gears in it. The ls1 pump is typically replaced with an ls6 oil pump or similar when a h/c swap is done.

    There were some small changes that helped cut down on crankcase windage, which can help power numbers. After all, that is why many guys use a windage tray for every little advantage. The ls1 block has some deep cylinder skirts along with the "short" oil pan, which keeps oil level high. I read a few threads about it not to long ago actually...:)

    Higher flywheel numbers will get to the rear wheels as well.

    I will say, I notice more uncertainty about high mileage on ls1's than I do these tough little 5.0L's;)

    Many do not like the wimpy pushrods, rod capscrews (similar to bolts), and the thin piston ringlands. That is what I seem to gather...

    I am just rambling on...:bang:
    #63
  4. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Actually, I was joking, lol. I honestly had no idea what I was talking about. So much for that! :jester:
    #64
  5. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    Here is something i stumbled across. Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5.0/stroker combos can be impressive, but its not that "fair" to keep one car limited and another car fully modded. Unless u make it so u pick one car or another with a certain budget, there are going to be tons of modded LS1's out there....with as much "work" into them as the 347s. So it is good to see how much ground can be made up with out "smaller and older" parts, but at the end of the day, to be realistic, you gotta let each car have whichever mods "usually" pop up on them and go from there. Especially when comparing 347's to LS1s. I know if i had a LS1 and i had a 347 driver talkin trash to me, i would either be thinking or saying to myself, "wait until i upgrade heads". I couldnt care less that u had a iron POS stock and i had a decent aluminum head stock. To me you spent $2000+ on heads and i spent $0 and you might not be making more than me. Now let me spend $2000 on heads and we'll see where the pieces fall.

    Yea.....the Trans am has been my favorite since they came out in 98 :lol:

    http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q188/KyleKappler/?action=view&current=Dyno-graphs.jpg
    [​IMG]
    #65
  6. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Yes, good points. Here is what I think we have determined in general:

    #1 A H/C/I 5.0 can win a race agains an unmodded LS1.
    #2 A modded LS1 will smoke an average H/C/I 5.0.
    #3 A H/C/I 347 CAN easily smoke a modded or stock LS1.
    #4 A H/C/I LS1 could ALSO smoke a H/C/I 347.

    If you want a kick arse car from factory, don't buy a 94/5 stang, buy an LT or LSx car. Any other option is anything goes.
    #66
  7. Bullitt95

    Bullitt95 Active Member

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    Probably because the LS1 is higher revving and owners will tend to rev the bejesus out of them, whereas a stock 5.0 has a serious case of asthma above 4500rpm so they don't see higher revs as often. Fewer revs = longer engine life.
    #67
  8. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    Those are pretty big general statements, but I am sure you realize that:) I know what you mean...

    1. Yep, a H/C/I can win a race, if it has the correct h/c/i set-up, weight. However, I have seen stock ls1's run 110 mph in the quarter:shrug: But there are some h/c/i guys with lots attention to detail and deeper pockets that trap more so.

    2. Yeah, I would say that is pretty true. "Smoke" is such a relative term anyways.

    3. That depends on the set-up of course, but a cam-only/exhaust ls1 will outrun the vast majority of 347's out there. They are getting well over 400rwhp as Nate pointed out a couple post up.

    4. I don't know if smoke is the right word, but I would give a slight mph advantage to the ls1.

    In the end, there are so many variables:bang:

    I thought an interesting sidenote was on the Trickflow kits for the 302 (370hp rating), and compare it to the ls1 kit (515hp rating). That is 1.48hp per cube at the engine for the ls1 kit, and 1.23 hp per cube at the engine for the 302. Take that for what you will. If I recall, they are getting 420-440 rwhp from it, so it sounded about the same ratio of power for the 302 kit.
    #68
  9. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Nate

    Very good points and I see the reasoning in them all :nice:

    I did start out this thread by trying to prove ... or not prove ... how much fact
    there really is when you see peeps on the net say ........

    "Stock LS1's are so bad you can't keep up with them ... even with mods"

    Of course ... you should expect a thread like this to evolve
    and
    Thats just fine with me as we have now gone from 5.0 to Stroker :rlaugh:

    Screw all the trash talk :crazy:
    This is not the Pinks show :nono:

    I really want to be open minded and try to fairly look at
    the differences :Word:

    We can only build our block to match theirs
    or
    Transplant a Windsor

    This thread seems to be focused around 347's so lets stick with
    that option for a block to match their block with :)

    For the sake of discussion here ... Lets ask these Q's

    1) Do we think the LS1 heads and other parts are really efficient? :shrug:

    If the general answer is Yes

    2) Tell me what heads and other parts supplied by Ford ... which would be
    considered OEM ... could we use that the Chevy boys would not cry about?

    Shouldn't take too long to find all the options ;)

    OK ... hopefully after answering that Q :rlaugh:
    We decide to go aftermarket :Word:

    You see ... they would want to cry we are not using OEM parts :chair:
    but
    They would not want to talk about the efficiency of their OEM parts :Zip2:

    So ... Here is the biggest Q of all here ;)

    3) Are aftermarket parts used on a 347 an advantage over the efficient
    LS1 OEM parts?
    :scratch:

    Now ... I wanna stress my idea of aftermarket parts are typical Street
    Car parts and nothing exotic or race related :D

    Grady
    #69
  10. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    Your right about fewer revs = longer engine life, but I do not see that being the case.

    I am not comparing a stock h/c/i 5.0 to an ls1. There are complaints of piston slap and sealing issues, rod capscrews, and the thin piston ringlands that allow them to "pinch (collapse)."

    Stock rev limiter is 6,200 rpm if I recall.

    Redline is a few hundred rpm below that.

    The reason why I compare the 347 to the 346 is because of the closeness of cubic inches:nice:

    And Grady, I say a big YES to your 3rd bolded question:) Aftermarket "347" parts have much better potential to make more power compared to OEM ls1 parts.

    I also hope I do not appear to be "trash talking." That is not what I was trying to do:(
    #70
  11. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Who is TT? :shrug: Sorry didn't notice any. :nono:

    On the 347 vs Lsx debate, I find it hard to believe that a H/C/I 347 cannot be built that will be an even match for ANY H/C/I LSx. That is what is confusing me b/c at this point we are down to the blocks and building on C.I. if you are "redoing" an LSx and a 347. :shrug: :)

    Am I being an idiot or missing something? If so - sorry.:chair: :cheers:
    #71
  12. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    When I brought up the trash talk :D

    In no way did I think you David ... or anyone else for that manner ... has resorted
    to juvenile behavior such as that :nono:

    I was just looking for talk that is centered around what we know to be true :)

    OK ... Now we are getting somewhere :nice:

    A couple quick points I wanna make ;)

    1) The benchmark here is the STOCK LS1 which seems that they put out
    310 to 325 rwhp on a Dynojet with a SAE calibration.

    2) We are gonna match their block with a 5.0 block stroked to 347

    The next part in our comparison is ... the parts we hang on our 347

    Now ... David has said the aftermarket parts we bolt on our 347 put the
    Chevy boys at a disadvantage.

    Are we all agreed that the efficiency of the OEM LS1 parts are not at as
    high of a level of efficiency as the sbf aftermarket parts? :scratch:

    I'm really looking for more viewpoints than David's here :Word:

    Not to say I agree or disagree with David :shrug:
    cause
    I really don't know myself ;)

    Grady
    #72
  13. DDSTANG94

    DDSTANG94 New Member

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    I THINK UR RITE ON THE BALL!!:nice:
    #73
  14. nmcgrawj

    nmcgrawj Advanced Member

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    well "opinion" doesnt say what parts are better stock vs aftermarket, only flow numbers/ cross section etc. Matter. If we say fords aftermarket is the ls1 stock counterpart then we instantly admit the ls1 is superior when its aftermarket is used.

    Just because we are comparing a 347 vs 346 short block that doesnt mean its "fair game" after that. Its still two COMPLETELY different designs for the motor. From what i have read from professionals those differences are what makes the LS1 motor superior to the ford. Just cause they have an aftermarket, it doesn't mean the aftermarket parts have equal potential.
    #74
  15. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Again ... Very good points Nate

    As discussed earlier in this thread and the other thread over in talk.

    The sbf short block has not really changed all that much since its inception
    so
    That is what we have to work with when talking blocks

    I do not know if ... "fords aftermarket is the ls1 stock counterpart" :scratch:

    They have heads that seem quite adequate to feed 350 cubes :shrug:

    We don't have any OEM heads that will do that for us :(
    so
    Do we not have to go with something like AFR 185's or similar :shrug:

    Again ... the idea is to match as closely as can be done .....
    part for part.

    David has earlier in this thread talked about the LS1 boys doing a different
    exhaust.

    If by saying that he means their OEM system is not all that great :shrug:

    I'm not advocating we hang a nice flowing aftermarket system on our 347
    as that would not be fair :nono:

    My point is to see what happens if we do up a 347 to match the LS1
    as fairly as can be done.

    I just got tired about seeing all the hype about the LS1
    and
    I wanted to lay out what was possible with what WE have to work with :)

    Everybody that has knowledge on the LS1 ......

    Go back to the first page and show where John's 347 with the small Edelbrock
    heads has advantages over the Stock LS1

    I'm looking to see where things are not fair between these two examples :D

    I am trying to be open minded here and keep my Ford bias in check :crazy:
    so
    Don't anybody feel they should not speak their mind here :nono:

    Grady
    #75
  16. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    This thread has lots of stuff to try and keep straight in your mind :crazy:

    I went back and looked once more and it seems David has already put up some
    answers to the Q's I have been asking :nice:

    Post #35 :D

    Post #38 :D

    Post#40 :D

    Thanks David :nice:

    Anybody else agree or disagree :shrug:

    Grady
    #76
  17. 95BlueStallion

    95BlueStallion Well-Known Member

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    Fords are better than Chevys. Thats my opinion! :) I have no hard data though, just personal experiences, lol. Great thread Grady, its opened my eyes greatly to the power of the bowtie boys!
    #77
  18. RAD

    RAD New Member

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    Seems like they gain a lot from "kidney" shaped cylinder head. Is there a head that is design like LS1's head but can be bolted down to Ford's shortblock?
    #78
  19. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    I've been looking around and can't seem to find any real good examples of 347's in the 450rwhp range that aren't revving PAST 7k rpm...

    To answer Grady's question.. and Davids,

    "I will say, as I have said before. With a camshaft, bolt-ons, and full exhaust, the ls1 is putting out well over 400 rwhp.

    This is with a STOCK intake and STOCK heads.

    Now imagine changing THEM out"

    I don't know if that is going to work that way...I mean SOUNDS like based on the research and Rad's post for example, that perhaps GM's lsx heads are so effiecient that the disparity between aftermarket and OEM on a Jevy is not going to be as wide as with a Ford. AND it sounds like FORD after market heads may need that larger volume to ofset the gap in efficiency that the Jevy heads have. AND to expand on this I also wonder if making the volume of the Jevy heads will make that large a difference... Some more questions I know but maybe it would get us closer to a well rounded answer.
    #79
  20. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Some more numbers WITH chevy aftermarket heads if it helps. I am seeing mostly high 300's to 405 or so rwhp with stock heads and c. and bolt ons.

    Intakes look like they are already super efficient so in many cases Cam might as well = C/I. As to the TQ? Just FY- looks like Cubic Inches argument still wins every time:

    -----

    MTI Stealth II cam+Stage II LS6 heads makes 422.7 RWHP!

    ----------

    O2 SS A4

    Mac Mid w/ ORP
    Vig 3000
    MTI S2 Heads w/ X1 Cam
    100 shot

    489 RWHP
    419 RWTQ

    --------------------

    98 t/a a4 3.23
    294rwhp
    327rwtq


    just an mti lid and free mods at the time.
    ----------

    02 Z -M6
    lid and catback
    324hp / 335tq
    ---------

    '98 WS6 A4

    K&N Filter
    G2 Lid
    Z06 85mm MAF
    Smooth Bellow
    Bauer Racing Ported TB
    TB bypass Mod
    LS6 Intake
    Hooker Headers
    2.5" True Duals w/X-pipe, Bullet mufflers
    Tuned w/LS1 Edit @ AMS

    (Unlocked)
    347 RWHP
    361 RWTQ

    ------------

    02 WS6 m6

    lid, SLP bellows, LM, Y-pipe

    SAE:
    327rwhp
    360rwtq

    ------------------

    02 M6 Z28:
    Stock: 292rwhp 314rwtq
    Lid and LM: 325rwhp 336rwtq
    Lid, LM, FLP + heavy 315's on: 348rwhp 363rwtq
    -----------

    01 WS6 - M6

    rwhp - 358.9
    rwtq - 370.0


    mods:
    -KOOKS LT headers
    w/ random tech 700000 series cats
    -Loudmouth catback
    -MTI Lid w/K&N
    -BG Ram Air (no affect on dyno #'s)
    -------------

    98 Z28 A4

    321 rhp @5600rpm
    334 rwt @4600rpm


    w/55000 on OD
    during the summer
    12.5 AF, Stock 3.23 rear
    and stock 16 5 spokes

    MTI LID, K&N Filter,
    160 Thermo, Hooker Muffler only,
    stock catback piping,
    Hooker LT and ORY Pipe.
    -----------

    00 WS6 M6
    Mods: SLP dual/dual
    Everything else stock, with paper filter

    320rwhp 333rwtq
    -----------

    stock automatic 99 Z: 288hp/301tq

    ------------

    2000 SS

    Comp Cam 222/222 563/563 114 Springs/Pushrods
    SLP long tubes
    High flow cats
    3 inch Y pipe and exhaust
    Granatelli Mass Air
    NGK plugs
    MSD hot wires
    In line fuel pump 255
    42 1/2 # Injectors Precision Industries
    Trans cooler a must
    ATI Pro Charger W/dual Intercoolers

    501 Rear Wheel
    476 Rear wheel torque


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Colonel09-18-2003, 04:36 PM
    That was a pickup of 71.6 RWHP at the peaks and alot more than that in other places (after the stock cam's peak.) Not bad for an A4 car with a cam that prompted me to accuse them of reinstalling the stock cam in my car when I first heard it (we left the idle where I had it with the stock cam at 675 RPM.) :nod:

    For those of you who may think that a 116 LSA cam can't make TQ, this cam absolutely KILLED the stock cam all the way across the chart. It made 395 ft-lbs of TQ with a locked converter. The stock TQ was 360.

    Here are some more details.

    The car has the standard bolt-ons including QTP 1 3/4" headers. No bolt-ons were added with the heads/cam package.

    The 422 RWHP was made through the QTP cuttout. With the cuttout closed and running through the stock exhaust it made 395.5 RWHP. The stock muffler is REALLY restrictive at this power level and the reverse split seems to really like the cuttout.

    All runs were made with ALL original accessories intact. NO short belt. NO electric water pump. The air filter WAS in place. The converter was locked. The stock rockers and lifters were re-used.

    Cam specs are 224/220 .581/.581 116 LSA

    ------------

    "went to the dyno saturday to tune my friend's car (2002 WS6), numbers before were 419 rwhp and 379 rwtq. mods were,FLP LTs,custom 3 inch Y-pipe ASP pulley, ported TB, LS6 MAF, TR230 cam, and of course tuning. this is all going through a moser 12 bolt with 4.10 gears.

    numbers after the absolute heads were 453 rwhp, and 402 TQ with the dual cutouts closed and 457rwhp and 407 rwtq with them open. "




    ------------

    For fun, forget just heads, lets add a STROKER:
    Mods and car..

    99 FRC Corvette M6

    382 Lunati Stroker Kit
    X1 Cam 112 LSA
    Stage 2 Heads w 2.02 1.57 Valves
    LS6 Intake
    Katech Throttle Body
    ASP Pulley
    FLP Longtubes w/ cats
    B&B PRT Exhaust
    Blackwing CAI
    LS1 Edit Tuning

    RWHP 455 @ 6400 RPMS
    RWTQ 440 @ 4800 RPMS


    --------------
    #80

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