Dyno numbers TW heads, FTI cam

[mo_dingo]

Paul is the archetype to which people base their opinions on AFR 16cc heads. I think this is a very bad thing to do. He is the worst person to use.

Why you might say? He is close to the fastest NA car here.

Lets say you throw a football 100 times, as hard as you can. Lets say the shortest you throw it is 30 yards, and the longest is 60 yards. 90% of the throws are inbetween 40-50. So if you tell yourself you can throw a ball 60 yards EVERY TIME, then you are seriously mistaken.

So why use Paul's track times as an example as the "average" track times for the AFR/FTI combo? He is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

If Zenboy runs his car now, he will likely be seriously dissapointed. According to his sig, he doesn't have tons of suspension upgrades. Nor, from what he said, does he have the track experience that Paul does.

To use Zenboy as the archetype for the TF/FTI combo is a bad idea also.

No here, just stating what I see!
Scott

 

[Grn92LX]

Ding Ding! We've got the correct answer. I guess it's the price?

We don't race dynos although the numbers are great for comparison and driving people's ego (THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TO ANY ONE SPECIFIC PERSON). All dyno numbers do is piss people off. Either they don't produce what they "expected" or they brag about their "great" numbers and they don't perform at the track.

The TFS ports are just too large for a stock 302. A "good" velocity is much harder to achieve on the TW heads, and once achieved, they will make more PEAK power than an AFR headed car because of the larger port volumes. AFRs will have much more useable power below "peak" than the TWs because a "good" velocity is much easier to achieve. (I'm hoping that makes sense)

The end-all of this discussion comes down to this: PROVE that a TFS headed 302 car runs harder than either an Edelbrock or AFR headed car. Track times followed by vehicle specs will suffice. I don't want to hear about how your buddy ran 3-tenths quicker to the 660' than his previous 12.12 @ 115 run. "Coulda-woulda-shoulda," but you/he/she/it did not - period.

This isn't a slam against any one individual or group of people in this posting. Moneypit, I ain't mad at 'cha brother. There seems to be a lot of the "younger" guys on here and I would hate from them to get the wrong impression by looking at JUST dyno numbers.

I would actually run a TFS head on a motor if I built the motor for it. Three hundred and two just aren't enough cubic inches for that big of a cylinder head. If I had about 10 more cubes and another point or two of compression, the TW heads would be perfect. If you want cheap, a cheap and hard running cylinder head is a GT40 P head. They have been proven time and time again.

IMO, there are much better sets of cylinder heads for a stock blocked 302 than a TFS TW head - that's all.

Joe

TW heads are NOT too much for a stock short 302. And this "more usable power" you speak of with the afr's over the TW, tell me why Zen's car makes about 30 MORE ft/lbs @ 3000 rpm than killers car?? And please dont call BS as Im staring at both graphs, there both saved on my computer. Theres guys running afr 185s on 302 and running damn good when the combo's set up for it. I actually have a friend that has a 185 headed 306 and runs damn good. You can't compare the ET of 2 cars as thats all driver related, but you can make a nice comparison by using dyno graphs. My friend has an afr/fti/rpm combo and I have a TW/fti/street intake car. Our 2500-3000 rpm #'s are practical identicle and we both used the SAME dyno to compare. Again, wheres this "more under the curve"?? Point is, if the combo is set up right, BOTH heads will make similar numbers but its up to the driver to put those fancy dyno #'s to good use. When both cars were untuned I played around with my friends afr/fti combo on the street from a roll and we were basically next to each other the whole time. This thread has taken a nice turn into yet another tw vs afr debate. Both 'partys' have there reasons/thoughts as to why they picked that head and I doubt anyones gonna change their minds. Its like debating about whether theres a god or not. An atheist isn't gonna change a bible humpers mind and the bible humper isn't gonna change the atheists mind.

For the record, when I bought my TW heads, they were $935 and afr's are like $1300 (or maybe $12xx back then??) so price difference was noticable.

 

[Imyourzero]

So why use Paul's track times as an example as the "average" track times for the AFR/FTI combo? He is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Scott, I wholeheartedly agree. I for one have NEVER thought of his times as the "norm" for an AFR/FTI combo...only what an AFR/FTI combo is capable of. Obviously everybody isn't going to run those times. But to run 12.31 on motor in a heavy SN95 convertible is almost unheard of, at least in my world. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life.

I am fully aware of the AFR/FTI combos that aren't quite as impressive as Paul's...but is it the equipment or the driver? There are lots of low/mid 13 second AFR cars on these boards, but when people are running those times on stock heads and a mild cam, I have to think it's because the AFR owners need more practice or need more traction. Common sense tells you that if you can run low-mid 13's on stock heads, the 40-50hp bump you get from AFR's + a custom cam (or a comparable TrickFlow combo) should make your car capable of much better times.

 

[Joes95GT]

TW heads are NOT too much for a stock short 302. And this "more usable power" you speak of with the afr's over the TW, tell me why Zen's car makes about 30 MORE ft/lbs @ 3000 rpm than killers car?? And please dont call BS as Im staring at both graphs, there both saved on my computer. Theres guys running afr 185s on 302 and running damn good when the combo's set up for it. I actually have a friend that has a 185 headed 306 and runs damn good. You can't compare the ET of 2 cars as thats all driver related, but you can make a nice comparison by using dyno graphs. My friend has an afr/fti/rpm combo and I have a TW/fti/street intake car. Our 2500-3000 rpm #'s are practical identicle and we both used the SAME dyno to compare. Again, wheres this "more under the curve"?? Point is, if the combo is set up right, BOTH heads will make similar numbers but its up to the driver to put those fancy dyno #'s to good use. When both cars were untuned I played around with my friends afr/fti combo on the street from a roll and we were basically next to each other the whole time. This thread has taken a nice turn into yet another tw vs afr debate. Both 'partys' have there reasons/thoughts as to why they picked that head and I doubt anyones gonna change their minds. Its like debating about whether theres a god or not. An atheist isn't gonna change a bible humpers mind and the bible humper isn't gonna change the atheists mind.

Although I don't have either graph for comparison, I take your word that Zen's car has 30 more ft/lbs @ 3000 RPM. However, I don't race and dyno.

Yes, driver ability has a lot to do with ETs, but MPH tells the story. I haven't seen a TFS headed car go 112 at a 3600 pound race weight. Hell, I haven't seen one go 112 at all, regardless of weight. I do admit however that I've never actually found out what some of the N/A Mustangs ran at the track. So I could have witnessed one and never recognized it. What does 112 MPH @ 3600 pounds equate to at a 3200-3300 pound race weight? 115-116 MPH? We have to remember that we are talking about an unproven car. Zen hasn't gotten the chance to take his car to the race track to prove to us what it can do. I will reserve judgement until he does. What I am speaking from is what I observe, and that is that AFR is best suited for stock block 302. I want proof - dyno numbers don't suffice . Next are you going to argue for a 700 horsepower Supra?

Joe

 

[95snoozer]

put his setup in my car and watch it hit teens

but seriously... my combo will be coming soon and will be interesting to see what it MPHs at. then it will get the bottle, lighter seats andsome goodies.

 

[onebad95]

Well, I think we should use Paul's car as an example. He doesn't even powershift the car. I would also like to use my afr/ blower cam car with an aode as an example. 12.95 on the first and only pass it ever made. That is with the big 2 1/4" svo side exhaust.

Afr makes great heads and I'm sure trick flow does as well. It's all in what you want.

Don't buy the AFR's, Paul, myself and others will be glad you didn't.

Remember, We are here to help each other.

 

[tmoss]

sorry, but if you look at the dyno that hump is due to the fact that his AF drops below his setups optimum efficiency.

just an observation

The A/F varies what .2 or so at the humps, sorry I can't see that as the cause for the humps and they are present in at least 3 other dynos I have of EDC's stuff. I could be wrong, but I think they are there as a product of his design, either intentionally or unintentionally. Just my opinion

 

[zenboy99]

HOLY CRAP! I don't surf on stangnet for two days, and suddenly I'm the spokesperson for Trick Flow! And I thought I was putting alot of pressure on myself to get into the mid 12's.

Just to clarify, I've wanted a cammed 5 Liter since I was a little kid. With a recent marriage and saving to buy a house I had very limited funds so I couldn't pass up $935 for a set of Trick Flow heads. If I had more money I would have gone with the AFR's.

On a side note, my car is currently dead. The bearings in the distributor are worn out. I can move the distributor shaft back and forth in the cap. It moves so much that I broke 3 rotors just trying to drive the car home 0.9 miles. Once I get that fixed, I should be back at the track in a few weeks. Please don't hold your breath until then.

Also, my suspension is all stock except for Steeda lowering springs and Tokico shocks/struts, so my weight transfer isn't very good. My best 60 foot is a 1.94, but that was with the Nitto's at 38psi, I forgot to air them down.

 

[95snoozer]

yank your sway bar

put the nittos at 15 hot

do a healthy 2nd gear burnout.

stock suspension is fine

 

[Grn92LX]

The A/F varies what .2 or so at the humps, sorry I can't see that as the cause for the humps and they are present in at least 3 other dynos I have of EDC's stuff. I could be wrong, but I think they are there as a product of his design, either intentionally or unintentionally. Just my opinion

The humps are not just because its ed's stuff, my car did that with a tfs #1 cam too and does it with ed's cam also.

 

[95snoozer]

on this particular dyno the humps coinside with the tune.

what you guys may be looking at is part of the fuel timing curve that all of yall had issues with.

watch where it dips and comes back and then look at the A/F

 

[tmoss]

on this particular dyno the humps coinside with the tune.

what you guys may be looking at is part of the fuel timing curve that all of yall had issues with.

watch where it dips and comes back and then look at the A/F

I looked at the smaller image and it is actually better to look at, but if your assumption that the torque curve is affected by a significant degree based on the A/F changes around the peaks, then there should also be a change at 5,100 rpm where the A/F changes lean again.

 

[95snoozer]

I am cunfused.... let me post a picture to show what would happen if that dip in a/f were flat

 

[95snoozer]

very rough, but you get the jist

 

[mto502]

I understand what Snoozer is saying and he's illustrated it quite well.

TMoss, I think that at 5100 it has peaked up a bit where the AF leans up. Neither line drops at all on and it appears to climb a touch.

Regardless of all that those are some nice numbers Zen !!

 

[Numbles]

I just wanted to join in and say how I cant believe noone has been called out to go heads up with their different combos. This forum is 10 times better than any other ive been in. If you wanna know what i meen. Just go in the 4.6 forum. Everytime someone gets a good time, the bs flag goes up and its a bitch fest.

Good #'s Zen, lookin forward to getting my car up and running too. See you at byron this summer.

 

[SuperStang83]

Nice numbers man! Why did you deide to go with those heads instead of AFR's anyway?

Jakob

 

[GTJake]

Nice numbers man! Why did you deide to go with those heads instead of AFR's anyway?

Jakob

He said price. The TFS are $995 or something versus the $1300 AFR's.

Jake

 

[zenboy99]

I actually paid $935 shipped for the Twisted Wedge heads. Summit had a February special for the e-mail subscribers. I couldn't pass up that deal. For those of you that don't know Summit owns Trick Flow.

Numbles, what are you doing to your car?

By the way, the next time I go racing my friend is coming down with me. He just put together an AFR-165/ FTI cam car, but he has a lighter Fox body car, and his cam is ALOT bigger then mine.

 

[wytstang]

For those of you that don't know Summit owns Trick Flow.

I didn't know that. learn something new everyday