Dyno numbers TW heads, FTI cam

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by zenboy99, May 7, 2004.


  1. mo_dingo

    mo_dingo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2003
    Messages:
    3,036
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    56
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Paul is the archetype to which people base their opinions on AFR 16cc heads. I think this is a very bad thing to do. He is the worst person to use.

    Why you might say? He is close to the fastest NA car here.

    Lets say you throw a football 100 times, as hard as you can. Lets say the shortest you throw it is 30 yards, and the longest is 60 yards. 90% of the throws are inbetween 40-50. So if you tell yourself you can throw a ball 60 yards EVERY TIME, then you are seriously mistaken.

    So why use Paul's track times as an example as the "average" track times for the AFR/FTI combo? He is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

    If Zenboy runs his car now, he will likely be seriously dissapointed. According to his sig, he doesn't have tons of suspension upgrades. Nor, from what he said, does he have the track experience that Paul does.

    To use Zenboy as the archetype for the TF/FTI combo is a bad idea also.

    No :flame: here, just stating what I see!
    Scott
    #41
  2. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,622
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    79
    Location:
    New York
    TW heads are NOT too much for a stock short 302. And this "more usable power" you speak of with the afr's over the TW, tell me why Zen's car makes about 30 MORE ft/lbs @ 3000 rpm than killers car?? And please dont call BS as Im staring at both graphs, there both saved on my computer. Theres guys running afr 185s on 302 and running damn good when the combo's set up for it. I actually have a friend that has a 185 headed 306 and runs damn good. You can't compare the ET of 2 cars as thats all driver related, but you can make a nice comparison by using dyno graphs. My friend has an afr/fti/rpm combo and I have a TW/fti/street intake car. Our 2500-3000 rpm #'s are practical identicle and we both used the SAME dyno to compare. Again, wheres this "more under the curve"?? Point is, if the combo is set up right, BOTH heads will make similar numbers but its up to the driver to put those fancy dyno #'s to good use. When both cars were untuned I played around with my friends afr/fti combo on the street from a roll and we were basically next to each other the whole time. This thread has taken a nice turn into yet another tw vs afr debate. Both 'partys' have there reasons/thoughts as to why they picked that head and I doubt anyones gonna change their minds. Its like debating about whether theres a god or not. An atheist isn't gonna change a bible humpers mind and the bible humper isn't gonna change the atheists mind. ;)

    For the record, when I bought my TW heads, they were $935 and afr's are like $1300 (or maybe $12xx back then??) so price difference was noticable.
    #42
  3. Imyourzero

    Imyourzero Learned that lesson as a horny teenager with lots Founding Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,301
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Hoonose, U.S.A. Posts: 39,051
    Scott, I wholeheartedly agree. I for one have NEVER thought of his times as the "norm" for an AFR/FTI combo...only what an AFR/FTI combo is capable of. Obviously everybody isn't going to run those times. But to run 12.31 on motor in a heavy SN95 convertible is almost unheard of, at least in my world. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life. :)

    I am fully aware of the AFR/FTI combos that aren't quite as impressive as Paul's...but is it the equipment or the driver? There are lots of low/mid 13 second AFR cars on these boards, but when people are running those times on stock heads and a mild cam, I have to think it's because the AFR owners need more practice or need more traction. Common sense tells you that if you can run low-mid 13's on stock heads, the 40-50hp bump you get from AFR's + a custom cam (or a comparable TrickFlow combo) should make your car capable of much better times.
    #43
  4. Joes95GT

    Joes95GT New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Delaware
    Although I don't have either graph for comparison, I take your word that Zen's car has 30 more ft/lbs @ 3000 RPM. However, I don't race and dyno. ;)

    Yes, driver ability has a lot to do with ETs, but MPH tells the story. I haven't seen a TFS headed car go 112 at a 3600 pound race weight. Hell, I haven't seen one go 112 at all, regardless of weight. I do admit however that I've never actually found out what some of the N/A Mustangs ran at the track. So I could have witnessed one and never recognized it. What does 112 MPH @ 3600 pounds equate to at a 3200-3300 pound race weight? 115-116 MPH? We have to remember that we are talking about an unproven car. Zen hasn't gotten the chance to take his car to the race track to prove to us what it can do. I will reserve judgement until he does. What I am speaking from is what I observe, and that is that AFR is best suited for stock block 302. I want proof - dyno numbers don't suffice ;). Next are you going to argue for a 700 horsepower Supra? :)

    Joe
    #44
  5. 95snoozer

    95snoozer New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    RCR
    put his setup in my car and watch it hit teens :)

    but seriously... my combo will be coming soon and will be interesting to see what it MPHs at. then it will get the bottle, lighter seats andsome goodies.
    #45
  6. onebad95

    onebad95 Sherriff of Bling King County

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    37
    Location:
    At the end of the track waiting for you !!
    Well, I think we should use Paul's car as an example. He doesn't even powershift the car. I would also like to use my afr/ blower cam car with an aode as an example. 12.95 on the first and only pass it ever made. That is with the big 2 1/4" svo side exhaust.

    Afr makes great heads and I'm sure trick flow does as well. It's all in what you want.

    Don't buy the AFR's, Paul, myself and others will be glad you didn't.

    Remember, We are here to help each other.
    #46
  7. tmoss

    tmoss Gettin Wired Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Messages:
    7,120
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    Saint Louis, MO
    The A/F varies what .2 or so at the humps, sorry I can't see that as the cause for the humps and they are present in at least 3 other dynos I have of EDC's stuff. I could be wrong, but I think they are there as a product of his design, either intentionally or unintentionally. Just my opinion
    #47
  8. zenboy99

    zenboy99 Founding Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    HOLY CRAP! I don't surf on stangnet for two days, and suddenly I'm the spokesperson for Trick Flow! And I thought I was putting alot of pressure on myself to get into the mid 12's.

    Just to clarify, I've wanted a cammed 5 Liter since I was a little kid. With a recent marriage and saving to buy a house I had very limited funds so I couldn't pass up $935 for a set of Trick Flow heads. If I had more money I would have gone with the AFR's.

    On a side note, my car is currently dead. The bearings in the distributor are worn out. I can move the distributor shaft back and forth in the cap. It moves so much that I broke 3 rotors just trying to drive the car home 0.9 miles. Once I get that fixed, I should be back at the track in a few weeks. Please don't hold your breath until then.

    Also, my suspension is all stock except for Steeda lowering springs and Tokico shocks/struts, so my weight transfer isn't very good. My best 60 foot is a 1.94, but that was with the Nitto's at 38psi, I forgot to air them down.
    #48
  9. 95snoozer

    95snoozer New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    RCR
    yank your sway bar

    put the nittos at 15 hot

    do a healthy 2nd gear burnout.

    stock suspension is fine :)
    #49
  10. Grn92LX

    Grn92LX Fidanza Man! Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,622
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    79
    Location:
    New York
    The humps are not just because its ed's stuff, my car did that with a tfs #1 cam too and does it with ed's cam also.
    #50
  11. 95snoozer

    95snoozer New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    RCR
    on this particular dyno the humps coinside with the tune.

    what you guys may be looking at is part of the fuel timing curve that all of yall had issues with.

    watch where it dips and comes back and then look at the A/F
    #51
  12. tmoss

    tmoss Gettin Wired Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Messages:
    7,120
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    Saint Louis, MO
    I looked at the smaller image and it is actually better to look at, but if your assumption that the torque curve is affected by a significant degree based on the A/F changes around the peaks, then there should also be a change at 5,100 rpm where the A/F changes lean again.
    #52
  13. 95snoozer

    95snoozer New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    RCR
    I am cunfused.... let me post a picture to show what would happen if that dip in a/f were flat
    #53
  14. 95snoozer

    95snoozer New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    RCR
    very rough, but you get the jist
    [​IMG]
    #54
  15. mto502

    mto502 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ancaster, Ontario
    I understand what Snoozer is saying and he's illustrated it quite well.

    TMoss, I think that at 5100 it has peaked up a bit where the AF leans up. Neither line drops at all on and it appears to climb a touch.

    Regardless of all that those are some nice numbers Zen !!
    #55
  16. Numbles

    Numbles Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I just wanted to join in and say how I cant believe noone has been called out to go heads up with their different combos. This forum is 10 times better than any other ive been in. If you wanna know what i meen. Just go in the 4.6 forum. Everytime someone gets a good time, the bs flag goes up and its a **** fest.

    Good #'s Zen, lookin forward to getting my car up and running too. See you at byron this summer.
    #56
  17. SuperStang83

    SuperStang83 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,773
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Location:
    Boyertown, Pa
    Nice numbers man! Why did you deide to go with those heads instead of AFR's anyway?

    Jakob
    #57
  18. GTJake

    GTJake Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    He said price. The TFS are $995 or something versus the $1300 AFR's.

    Jake
    #58
  19. zenboy99

    zenboy99 Founding Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    I actually paid $935 shipped for the Twisted Wedge heads. Summit had a February special for the e-mail subscribers. I couldn't pass up that deal. For those of you that don't know Summit owns Trick Flow.

    Numbles, what are you doing to your car?

    By the way, the next time I go racing my friend is coming down with me. He just put together an AFR-165/ FTI cam car, but he has a lighter Fox body car, and his cam is ALOT bigger then mine.
    #59
  20. wytstang

    wytstang Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    5,150
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    Summerville,SC missing South Fl. weather :(
    I didn't know that. learn something new everyday
    #60

Share This Page